sysout without JES2

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sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In COMMND00 I can have commands like this:

COM='S CMD1'
COM='S JES2,,,PARM='COLD,NOREQ''

The first command is executed *before*
JES2 has even started.

If, hypothetically, CMD1 had something like:

//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=A

then what actually happens when the
task is run and outputs to SYSPRINT?

How is it possible to output to SYSOUT
when JES2 isn't active? Does it abend
or what?

Thanks. Paul.
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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
"If, hypothetically, CMD1 had something like:

//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=A

then what actually happens when the
task is run and outputs to SYSPRINT?"

You wouldn't code that before JES2. You would code SYSOUT to UNIT=00E.

Joe

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 3:15 AM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> In COMMND00 I can have commands like this:
>
> COM='S CMD1'
> COM='S JES2,,,PARM='COLD,NOREQ''
>
> The first command is executed *before*
> JES2 has even started.
>
> If, hypothetically, CMD1 had something like:
>
> //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=A
>
> then what actually happens when the
> task is run and outputs to SYSPRINT?
>
> How is it possible to output to SYSOUT
> when JES2 isn't active? Does it abend
> or what?
>
> Thanks. Paul.
>
>
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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
On 3/12/2017 4:15 AM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> In COMMND00 I can have commands like this:
> COM='S CMD1'
> COM='S JES2,,,PARM='COLD,NOREQ''
>
> The first command is executed *before*
> JES2 has even started.

That is special behavior for MVS. A start task may run without JES when
the name is four characters or less, and is defined in the sub-system
name table IEFJESNM in module IEEVIPL.

> If, hypothetically, CMD1 had something like:
> //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=A
>
> then what actually happens when the
> task is run and outputs to SYSPRINT?

I don't remember that; I'm sure I tried it when MVS first came out (I
remember speculating if there was a JES1). It either disappears quietly,
or bombs?  I'm too lazy to IPL and try it.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

---
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RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In this case, CMD1 will remain waiting for JES2 start and will be executed only after that.

 

 

De: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviada em: domingo, 12 de março de 2017 13:22
Para: [hidden email]
Assunto: Re: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

 

 

On 3/12/2017 4:15 AM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> In COMMND00 I can have commands like this:
> COM='S CMD1'
> COM='S JES2,,,PARM='COLD,NOREQ''
>
> The first command is executed *before*
> JES2 has even started.

That is special behavior for MVS. A start task may run without JES when
the name is four characters or less, and is defined in the sub-system
name table IEFJESNM in module IEEVIPL.

> If, hypothetically, CMD1 had something like:
> //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=A
>
> then what actually happens when the
> task is run and outputs to SYSPRINT?

I don't remember that; I'm sure I tried it when MVS first came out (I
remember speculating if there was a JES1). It either disappears quietly,
or bombs? I'm too lazy to IPL and try it.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

---
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http://www.avg.com



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Re: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
On 3/12/2017 1:25 PM, João Reginato [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> In this case, CMD1 will remain waiting for JES2 start and will be
> executed only after that.

What makes you think so?  CMD1, if properly installed, runs as a
subsystem independent of JES2/3. When I first installed tk3 more than
ten years ago, I had to rely on it to inspect storage and fix problems.
While I didn't use SYSOUT to print, I did get console screen prints.

For newer systems IBM has made this easier, by adding a subsystem
operand on the START command; to run without JES, simply add a SUB=MSTR
on the start.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
On 2017-03-13 7:49 AM, Gerhard Postpischil [hidden email]
[H390-MVS] wrote:
> > In this case, CMD1 will remain waiting for JES2 start and will be
> > executed only after that.
>
> What makes you think so? CMD1, if properly installed, runs as a
> subsystem independent of JES2/3.

Yes, but that is the point.
With a SYSOUT DD in the JCL, CMD1 is _not_ properly installed.

So what problem(s) can flow from that?

Before CMD1 gets control, MVS device allocation will make a primary
subsystem allocation call to allocate the SYSOUT DD.  When the primary
subsystem is not active, the alternatives become:
(a) fail the request now, in which case CMD1 will fail to run with a
START command device allocation error,
- or -
(b) wait for the primary subsystem to become active.

It sounds like João tried it and found that option (b) was the result.

I might have tipped option (a) myself, but I seem to recall from decades
ago that option (b) is the right answer.

Cheers,
Greg

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RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Oh sorry. I didn’t know CMD1 is a subsystem.

You are right: sub=mstr works fine but you still cannot use sysouts, unless you have changed your program to access Jes2 files using the subsystem interface.

 

 

De: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviada em: domingo, 12 de março de 2017 17:50
Para: [hidden email]
Assunto: Re: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

 

 

On 3/12/2017 1:25 PM, João Reginato [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> In this case, CMD1 will remain waiting for JES2 start and will be
> executed only after that.

What makes you think so? CMD1, if properly installed, runs as a
subsystem independent of JES2/3. When I first installed tk3 more than
ten years ago, I had to rely on it to inspect storage and fix problems.
While I didn't use SYSOUT to print, I did get console screen prints.

For newer systems IBM has made this easier, by adding a subsystem
operand on the START command; to run without JES, simply add a SUB=MSTR
on the start.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com



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RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Today, if I try to open a sysout under MSTR subsystem in z/OS, it abends with

 

$HASP708 CMD1     ???????? OPEN FAILED RC=13 SDB/IRWD VALIDATION ERROR                                  

IEC141I 013-C0,IGG0199G,CMD1,CMD1,SYSPRINT

 

I have used a simple IEBGENER

 

 

De: João Reginato [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 13 de março de 2017 11:30
Para: '[hidden email]'
Assunto: RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

 

Oh sorry. I didn’t know CMD1 is a subsystem.

You are right: sub=mstr works fine but you still cannot use sysouts, unless you have changed your program to access Jes2 files using the subsystem interface.

 

 

De: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviada em: domingo, 12 de março de 2017 17:50
Para: [hidden email]
Assunto: Re: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

 

 

On 3/12/2017 1:25 PM, João Reginato [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> In this case, CMD1 will remain waiting for JES2 start and will be
> executed only after that.

What makes you think so? CMD1, if properly installed, runs as a
subsystem independent of JES2/3. When I first installed tk3 more than
ten years ago, I had to rely on it to inspect storage and fix problems.
While I didn't use SYSOUT to print, I did get console screen prints.

For newer systems IBM has made this easier, by adding a subsystem
operand on the START command; to run without JES, simply add a SUB=MSTR
on the start.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com




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Re: RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
---In [hidden email], <jb.reginato@...> wrote :

> Today, if I try to open a sysout under MSTR subsystem in z/OS, it abends with

> $HASP708 CMD1     ???????? OPEN FAILED RC=13 SDB/IRWD VALIDATION ERROR                                  
> IEC141I 013-C0,IGG0199G,CMD1,CMD1,SYSPRINT

> I have used a simple IEBGENER

Thanks for the test result.

Now I know that I can't start an
application with SYSOUT= from
COMMND00, but I can still issue
simple commands like:

V 400-402,ONLINE

BFN. Paul.
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Re: RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
 - - - In [hidden email], <kerravon86@...> wrote:
- - - old note snipped - - -
> Thanks for the test result.
> Now I know that I can't start an
>application with SYSOUT= from
>COMMND00, but I can still issue
>simple commands like:
> V 400-402,ONLINE
> BFN. Paul.

That sounds insane.

All of the systems that have any COMMNDxx members with::

COM='S BSPSETPF,PARM=NOREPLYU'
or any other non-subsystem start
should immediately erase all disk volumes.

JES2 related IPL commands should go into JES2PARM.
MVS related IPL commands should go into COMMNDxx.

Example:
COMMND00:
COM='START CMD1.CMD1   From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'
COM='START JES2,PARM=(WARM,NOREQ)   From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'
COM='START BSPPILOT,PARM=NOWTO   From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'
COM='START BSPSETPF,PARM=NOREPLYU   From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'
COM='START DYNABLDL   From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'
COM='START DYNAMASK   From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'
COM='START NET.NET   From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'

Why would anyone want to delay the start of VTAM until after JES2 initializes?
Many do, but do they understand that other things depend on VTAM?
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Re: RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
- - - In [hidden email], <jb.reginato@...> wrote:
> Oh sorry. I didn’t know CMD1 is a subsystem.
>You are right: sub=mstr works fine but you still cannot use sysouts,
>unless you have changed your program to access Jes2 files using
>the subsystem interface.
- - - old notes snipped - - -

Yes.

TSSO/SSSO is an example of a sub-system requesting a JES2 STC
number to be able to send SYSOUT to sub-system JES2.
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Re: RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
---In [hidden email], <somitcw@...> wrote :

>> Now I know that I can't start an
>> application with SYSOUT= from
>> COMMND00, but I can still issue
>> simple commands like:
>> V 400-402,ONLINE

> MVS related IPL commands should go into COMMNDxx.
 
> Example:
> COMMND00:
> COM='START BSPPILOT,PARM=NOWTO From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'

How is that possible? BSPPILOT is
more than 4 characters. Here is the
reference:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/H390-MVS/conversations/messages/17098

That is special behavior for MVS. A start task may run without JES when
the name is four characters or less, and is defined in the sub-system
name table IEFJESNM in module IEEVIPL.


BFN. Paul.
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Re: RES: RES: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
- - - In [hidden email], <kerravon86@...> wrote:

> - - - In [hidden email] mailto:[hidden email], <somitcw@...> wrote
>>> Now I know that I can't start an
>>> application with SYSOUT= from
>>> COMMND00, but I can still issue
>>> simple commands like:
>>> V 400-402,ONLINE
>> MVS related IPL commands should go into COMMNDxx.
>> Example:
>> COMMND00:
>> COM='START BSPPILOT,PARM=NOWTO From: SYS1.PARMLIB(COMMND00)'
> How is that possible? BSPPILOT is
>more than 4 characters. Here is the
>reference:
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/H390-MVS/conversations/messages/17098

Yes, sort-of, almost.
The internal sub-system name is limited to four characters.

But what delusion makes you believe that COMMNDxx has
anything to do with sub-systems?

COMMNDxx is for MVS IPL commands.
It can even have starts for sub-systems.  That is allowed.

That is "even" not "only".

> That is special behavior for MVS. A start task may run without JES when
>the name is four characters or less, and is defined in the sub-system
>name table IEFJESNM in module IEEVIPL.
> BFN. Paul.

I prefer IEFJSSNT - Subsystem Name Table.

Referenced:
http://www.j76.org/vs2/tmvs801.zip
and
SYS1.AGENLIB(SGIEF440) STAGE2 MACRO
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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Normally what happens (except at IPL) is that during JCL conversion, a call would be made to the subsystem responsible for SYSOUT.  For JCL SYSOUT allocation, this would be the JES that the job is executing under.  If the job is executing under MSTR JES, MSTR does not support SYSOUT output and returns a bad return code, the JCL conversion fails and the job is not run.
What happens at IPL time is a bit different.  All of the START commands in e.g. COMMNDnn that are to be submitted to JES2 would fail because JES2 is not up, so an ENQ is issued by the Master Scheduler on SYSIEFSD STCQUE.  All Started Jobs except those submitted to MSTR JES issue this ENQ (IEESB605) so they are blocked by the ENQ being held by Master Scheduler.
When the Primary JES (JES2/3) is ready to accept work, they XMEM Post the Master Scheduler TCB holding this ENQ and it releases the ENQ, thereby permitting the START commands in parmlib to be submitted to (the now up) primary JES.

      From: "Joe Monk [hidden email] [H390-MVS]" <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 7:21 AM
 Subject: Re: [H390-MVS] sysout without JES2
   
    "If, hypothetically, CMD1 had something like:

//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=A

then what actually happens when the
task is run and outputs to SYSPRINT?"
You wouldn't code that before JES2. You would code SYSOUT to UNIT=00E.
Joe
On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 3:15 AM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] <[hidden email]> wrote:

     In COMMND00 I can have commands like this:

COM='S CMD1'
COM='S JES2,,,PARM='COLD,NOREQ''

The first command is executed *before*
JES2 has even started.

If, hypothetically, CMD1 had something like:

//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=A

then what actually happens when the
task is run and outputs to SYSPRINT?

How is it possible to output to SYSOUT
when JES2 isn't active? Does it abend
or what?

Thanks. Paul.
   

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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
---In [hidden email], <gerhardp@...> wrote :

 [...] (I remember speculating if there was a JES1). [...]
 

 So, was there ever a JES1? Anyone knows? Suddenly, I am curious about it :-)
 

 Rene FERLAND, Montreal

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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
There was a JES1 for VS1. It seems to be a follow up to HASP on MVx systems.

On Sunday, March 19, 2017, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> ---In [hidden email]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[hidden email]');>, <gerhardp@...>
> wrote :
>
> [...] (I remember speculating if there was a JES1). [...]
>
> So, was there ever a JES1? Anyone knows? Suddenly, I am curious about it
> :-)
>
> Rene FERLAND, Montreal
>
>
>
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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Wasn't that HASP?

Joe

On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 2:20 PM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] <
[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> ---In [hidden email], <gerhardp@...> wrote :
>
> [...] (I remember speculating if there was a JES1). [...]
>
> So, was there ever a JES1? Anyone knows? Suddenly, I am curious about it
> :-)
>
> Rene FERLAND, Montreal
>
>
>
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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
 blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white !important; } Vaguely remembering VS1... it would have been there maybe? HASP was MFT and MVT.
I did a lot of work on JES2. I invented Quick Start, later picked up by IBM development team.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, March 19, 2017, 15:37, Joe Monk [hidden email] [H390-MVS] <[hidden email]> wrote:

   

Wasn't that HASP?
Joe
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 2:20 PM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] <[hidden email]> wrote:

    

---In [hidden email], <gerhardp@...> wrote :

[...] (I remember speculating if there was a JES1). [...]
So, was there ever a JES1? Anyone knows? Suddenly, I am curious about it :-)
Rene FERLAND, Montreal

   

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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Yes, Leon, as I recall, the 'job entry subsystem' that came with VS1 was sometimes informally referred to as JES1.

JJ
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Re: sysout without JES2

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
 - - - In [hidden email], <ferland.rene@...> wrote:
> ---In [hidden email], <gerhardp@...> wrote :
> [...] (I remember speculating if there was a JES1). [...]
> So, was there ever a JES1? Anyone knows? Suddenly, I am curious about it :-)
> Rene FERLAND, Montreal

MFT, MVT, and VS1 could enter and print JOBs before HASP(JES2) and
ASP(JES3) but before there was a second JES, we didn't call what we had
previously JES1.
Like someone is born that may later have a child with the same name is not
called SR. before there is a JR.

After HASP was numbered as being JES-the-second, then to distinguish
between the earlier JES, people called it JES1.

Earlier JES ( now referred as JES1 ) did not use SPOOL.
SYSIN and SYSOUT were disk data sets that looked like temporary
data sets and were scattered all over the disk volumes.

If you had a large report, you would specify a SPACE parameter on
a SYSOUT= DD Statement.

VS1 operators had better control over JES writers than operators fighting
the early versions of VS2 HASP/JES2.

Starting a RDR or WTR to unit-record equipment, disk, or tape was just
a minor change to the PROC or start command.

The commands to control JOB enter and printing were operating system
commands with no dollar sign or other prefix.
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