Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Mark Morgan Lloyd-2
Juergen wrote:
> --- In [hidden email], Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:
>> On 7 May 2013 12:36, Greg B <boltcapt@...> wrote:

> Once you succeeded to build both, Hercules and PuTTY, you're almost ready to go: Some fiddling with the scripts as I mentioned in the previous post and it should work.
>> It might make sense to use the "standalone" version of APL\360 for
>> such a small platform.  (I put standalone in quotes, because that
>> version starts up under DOS/360, and once it's up, overlays the DOS
>> supervisor with I/O buffers.)  Of course this isn't all ready to go
>> like Juergen's great MVT work, but it almost certainly would have
>> lower overhead than the MVT version.
>>
> yes, Tony, that's true: The standalone version would run with lower overhead. But:
>
> - The source the Computer History Museum provides is for the MVT/MFT version only. There is no chance to build to build the standalone or the DOS version from that source. In the beginning I assumed that we have the source for all environments, so in older posts this erroneous assumption had been discussed.

I thought I saw something in the source about VM. I wonder whether
that's doable, i.e. without the multiple terminal support etc.?

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann


--- In [hidden email], Mark Morgan Lloyd <markmll.hercules-390@...> wrote:

> >
> > - The source the Computer History Museum provides is for
> > the MVT/MFT version only. There is no chance to build to
> > build the standalone or the DOS version from that source.
> > In the beginning I assumed that we have the source for all
> > environments, so in older posts this erroneous assumption
> > had been discussed.
>
> I thought I saw something in the source about VM. I wonder
> whether that's doable, i.e. without the multiple terminal
> support etc.?
>
No, the given source definitely has no "VM" intentions. But, afaik, the APLSV program product, which can be seen as closest successor of APL\360 in the line of IBM APL products, has gone that way: The APL\360 interpreter was first ported to CMS, then garbage collection was redesigned to enable 24-bit workspace sizes. This CMS version of APL\360 was then the base for the design of APLSV.

So, getting back to your question: Yes, a port to CMS is clearly doable. But without at least going after the workspace size extension too it would be clueless (i.e. why would one want to do this without having extensions in mind). The amount of work even for this "simple" extension is massive. The redesign of the workspace structure and the garbage collection definitely is heavy stuff. So, personally, I think it doesn't make much sense to go down this road.

Anyway: I don't want to demotivate anyone to try it ;-)

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Mark Morgan Lloyd-2
Juergen wrote:

> --- In [hidden email], Mark Morgan Lloyd <markmll.hercules-390@...> wrote:
>>> - The source the Computer History Museum provides is for
>>> the MVT/MFT version only. There is no chance to build to
>>> build the standalone or the DOS version from that source.
>>> In the beginning I assumed that we have the source for all
>>> environments, so in older posts this erroneous assumption
>>> had been discussed.
>> I thought I saw something in the source about VM. I wonder
>> whether that's doable, i.e. without the multiple terminal
>> support etc.?
>>
> No, the given source definitely has no "VM" intentions. But, afaik, the APLSV program product, which can be seen as closest successor of APL\360 in the line of IBM APL products, has gone that way: The APL\360 interpreter was first ported to CMS, then garbage collection was redesigned to enable 24-bit workspace sizes. This CMS version of APL\360 was then the base for the design of APLSV.
>
> So, getting back to your question: Yes, a port to CMS is clearly doable. But without at least going after the workspace size extension too it would be clueless (i.e. why would one want to do this without having extensions in mind). The amount of work even for this "simple" extension is massive. The redesign of the workspace structure and the garbage collection definitely is heavy stuff. So, personally, I think it doesn't make much sense to go down this road.
>
> Anyway: I don't want to demotivate anyone to try it ;-)

Thanks for the clarification :-) I think that from my position of
inexperience/ignorance I was ascribing more significance to internal
mention of CP67 than it deserved.

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Verrilli
In reply to this post by winkelmann
I think that APL\360 never really was much more than an educational tool. I was writing a simple program the other day and forgot that the format operator was not available in APL\360. That made me remember that APL\360 had its serious shortcomings. But, I personally like that the original implementation of APL has been historically restored as close as possible to how it was back in the 70's. Very cool.  Any further work on this project should be to make it an even closer historical experience to the original. Some ideas: Other libraries with sample programs? Better 2741 emulation? Typeball sound effects!? (I'll never forget the sound, and the smell for that matter, of the 2741 pounding away as fast as it could). I'd love to even find an old 2741 terminal and interface it to the emulator, but I guess they are unobtanium at this point. Best I could do was find an old IBM PC keyboard from the 80's and apply some IBM APL stickers to the keys. Not quite the same, but somewhat retro at least.  

That being said, It would also be really cool to have a separate project implementing VM/CMS with APLSV. That was another experience which should be preserved. With APLSV, APL was made into a truly useful commercial product. I remember back in 1981 when I was an intern at IBM Kingston, they had a huge library of custom APL functions which translated high level hardware design language into low level BLDS card images. These were used to design the 8100 mini computers. This stuff was really used!

Colin

--- In [hidden email], "Juergen" <winkelmann@...> wrote:
> No, the given source definitely has no "VM" intentions. But, afaik, the APLSV program product, which can be seen as closest successor of APL\360 in the line of IBM APL products, has gone that way: The APL\360 interpreter was first ported to CMS, then garbage collection was redesigned to enable 24-bit workspace sizes. This CMS version of APL\360 was then the base for the design of APLSV.
>
> So, getting back to your question: Yes, a port to CMS is clearly doable. But without at least going after the workspace size extension too it would be clueless (i.e. why would one want to do this without having extensions in mind). The amount of work even for this "simple" extension is massive. The redesign of the workspace structure and the garbage collection definitely is heavy stuff. So, personally, I think it doesn't make much sense to go down this road.
>
> Anyway: I don't want to demotivate anyone to try it ;-)
>
> Cheers, Juergen
>

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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Gregg Levine
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 5:57 PM, verrilli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that APL\360 never really was much more than an educational tool. I was writing a simple program the other day and forgot that the format operator was not available in APL\360. That made me remember that APL\360 had its serious shortcomings. But, I personally like that the original implementation of APL has been historically restored as close as possible to how it was back in the 70's. Very cool.  Any further work on this project should be to make it an even closer historical experience to the original. Some ideas: Other libraries with sample programs? Better 2741 emulation? Typeball sound effects!? (I'll never forget the sound, and the smell for that matter, of the 2741 pounding away as fast as it could). I'd love to even find an old 2741 terminal and interface it to the emulator, but I guess they are unobtanium at this point. Best I could do was find an old IBM PC keyboard from the 80's and apply some IBM APL stickers to the keys. Not quite the same, but somewhat retro at least.
>
> That being said, It would also be really cool to have a separate project implementing VM/CMS with APLSV. That was another experience which should be preserved. With APLSV, APL was made into a truly useful commercial product. I remember back in 1981 when I was an intern at IBM Kingston, they had a huge library of custom APL functions which translated high level hardware design language into low level BLDS card images. These were used to design the 8100 mini computers. This stuff was really used!
>
> Colin
>
> --- In [hidden email], "Juergen" <winkelmann@...> wrote:
>> No, the given source definitely has no "VM" intentions. But, afaik, the APLSV program product, which can be seen as closest successor of APL\360 in the line of IBM APL products, has gone that way: The APL\360 interpreter was first ported to CMS, then garbage collection was redesigned to enable 24-bit workspace sizes. This CMS version of APL\360 was then the base for the design of APLSV.
>>
>> So, getting back to your question: Yes, a port to CMS is clearly doable. But without at least going after the workspace size extension too it would be clueless (i.e. why would one want to do this without having extensions in mind). The amount of work even for this "simple" extension is massive. The redesign of the workspace structure and the garbage collection definitely is heavy stuff. So, personally, I think it doesn't make much sense to go down this road.
>>
>> Anyway: I don't want to demotivate anyone to try it ;-)
>>
>> Cheers, Juergen
> ------------------------------------

Hello!
Not really. Selectric typewriters are available, and there are
available guides on turning one into a output only device. Turning it
into a input and output device, now that's a special case. I suspect
since the materials are available online concerning what's under the
hood, I believe it is almost doable.

And as it happens we'd need to explore the used equipment pages.
-----
Gregg C Levine [hidden email]
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Tony Harminc
On 10 May 2013 22:04, Gregg Levine <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not really. Selectric typewriters are available, and there are
> available guides on turning one into a output only device. Turning it
> into a input and output device, now that's a special case. I suspect
> since the materials are available online concerning what's under the
> hood, I believe it is almost doable.
>
> And as it happens we'd need to explore the used equipment pages.

There were several companies who bought Selectric mechanisms from IBM
- either true Selectric I/O printers, or just ordinary typewriters -
and made their own 2741-like terminals. The quality varied a lot, but
few were up to the real IBM ones, because there were at least a couple
of duty levels of the Selectric hardware, and the typewriter was not
up to intensive printing. I have one made by Novar that I bought used
for $300 around 1976. It uses the basic typewriter mechanism, and the
electronics and additional mechanics are quite different from IBM's. I
haven't fired it up in decades, and I suspect it needs a C3PO-style
bath in WD-40.

One of these days when I'm retired and have the time but no money...

Tony H.
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Dave Wade-2
In reply to this post by Gregg Levine
On 11/05/2013 03:04, Gregg Levine wrote:

> On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 5:57 PM, verrilli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I think that APL\360 never really was much more than an educational tool. I was writing a simple program the other day and forgot that the format operator was not available in APL\360. That made me remember that APL\360 had its serious shortcomings. But, I personally like that the original implementation of APL has been historically restored as close as possible to how it was back in the 70's. Very cool.  Any further work on this project should be to make it an even closer historical experience to the original. Some ideas: Other libraries with sample programs? Better 2741 emulation? Typeball sound effects!? (I'll never forget the sound, and the smell for that matter, of the 2741 pounding away as fast as it could). I'd love to even find an old 2741 terminal and interface it to the emulator, but I guess they are unobtanium at this point. Best I could do was find an old IBM PC keyboard from the 80's and apply some IBM APL stickers to the keys. Not quite the same, but somewhat retro at least.
>>
>> That being said, It would also be really cool to have a separate project implementing VM/CMS with APLSV. That was another experience which should be preserved. With APLSV, APL was made into a truly useful commercial product. I remember back in 1981 when I was an intern at IBM Kingston, they had a huge library of custom APL functions which translated high level hardware design language into low level BLDS card images. These were used to design the 8100 mini computers. This stuff was really used!
>>
>> Colin
>>
>> --- In [hidden email], "Juergen" <winkelmann@...> wrote:
>>> No, the given source definitely has no "VM" intentions. But, afaik, the APLSV program product, which can be seen as closest successor of APL\360 in the line of IBM APL products, has gone that way: The APL\360 interpreter was first ported to CMS, then garbage collection was redesigned to enable 24-bit workspace sizes. This CMS version of APL\360 was then the base for the design of APLSV.
>>>
>>> So, getting back to your question: Yes, a port to CMS is clearly doable. But without at least going after the workspace size extension too it would be clueless (i.e. why would one want to do this without having extensions in mind). The amount of work even for this "simple" extension is massive. The redesign of the workspace structure and the garbage collection definitely is heavy stuff. So, personally, I think it doesn't make much sense to go down this road.
>>>
>>> Anyway: I don't want to demotivate anyone to try it ;-)
>>>
>>> Cheers, Juergen
>> ------------------------------------
> Hello!
> Not really. Selectric typewriters are available, and there are
> available guides on turning one into a output only device.

All the ones I have seen need a proper i/o writer not a typewriter.

> Turning it
> into a input and output device, now that's a special case. I suspect
> since the materials are available online concerning what's under the
> hood, I believe it is almost doable.

Input device is probably easier. Magnets on the keyboard levers and Reed
Switches on a PCB underneath. I have an Electronic Composer which has
all this built in but is proportional and I don't want proportional.......

> And as it happens we'd need to explore the used equipment pages.
> -----
> Gregg C Levine [hidden email]
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Dave
G4UGM
>
>


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APL keyboard stickers

Verrilli
In reply to this post by winkelmann
Hi,
I'm looking for a set or two of APL keyboard stickers. I know this is not the ideal place to post, but I figure there might be some APL users out there who could help.

I know about the APL FAQ but those sources seem to have dried up.

About a year ago I was able to order P/N SC33-0604-00 from IBM directly using a credit card, but now the site ( www.ibm.com/e-business/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss# ) no longer accepts credit cards. They only accept "customer number". I tried to obtain a customer number, but just ended up going around in circles with various support groups at IBM.

So does anybody know of a way an ordinary person can get these? Or is anybody who has a customer number willing to buy a couple for me and mail them to me?

The ironic thing is that I work for IBM and could order them for about $0.23 each, IF I had a valid business use. But I don't and it requires manager sign-off, so I'm out of luck. In the old days I would have been able to order under the radar, but the finance guys are in control of the company now, so...

Colin


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Re: APL keyboard stickers

Mark Morgan Lloyd-2
verrilli wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm looking for a set or two of APL keyboard stickers. I know this is not the ideal place to post, but I figure there might be some APL users out there who could help.
>
> I know about the APL FAQ but those sources seem to have dried up.
>
> About a year ago I was able to order P/N SC33-0604-00 from IBM directly using a credit card, but now the site ( www.ibm.com/e-business/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss# ) no longer accepts credit cards. They only accept "customer number". I tried to obtain a customer number, but just ended up going around in circles with various support groups at IBM.
>
> So does anybody know of a way an ordinary person can get these? Or is anybody who has a customer number willing to buy a couple for me and mail them to me?
>
> The ironic thing is that I work for IBM and could order them for about $0.23 each, IF I had a valid business use. But I don't and it requires manager sign-off, so I'm out of luck. In the old days I would have been able to order under the radar, but the finance guys are in control of the company now, so...

This any use?
http://shop.hooleon.com/products/keyboards-stickers-emulations-apl

Otherwise it might be worth trawling suppliers like Dymo, in case any of
their label printers can do special characters and mark an arbitrary
outline which could be cut with a craft knife or (very) sharp scissors.

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: APL keyboard stickers

Tony Harminc
In reply to this post by Verrilli
On 6 July 2013 16:33, verrilli <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm looking for a set or two of APL keyboard stickers. I know this is not the ideal place to post, but I figure there might be some APL users out there who could help.
>
> I know about the APL FAQ but those sources seem to have dried up.
>
> About a year ago I was able to order P/N SC33-0604-00 from IBM directly using a credit card, but now the site ( www.ibm.com/e-business/linkweb/publications/servlet/pbi.wss# ) no longer accepts credit cards. They only accept "customer number". I tried to obtain a customer number, but just ended up going around in circles with various support groups at IBM.
>
> So does anybody know of a way an ordinary person can get these? Or is anybody who has a customer number willing to buy a couple for me and mail them to me?
>
> The ironic thing is that I work for IBM and could order them for about $0.23 each, IF I had a valid business use. But I don't and it requires manager sign-off, so I'm out of luck. In the old days I would have been able to order under the radar, but the finance guys are in control of the company now, so...

Heh - I have a personal customer number that I see from my old paper
files I last used in 1992. To my surprise the (bizarrely designed)
order entry page was happy to take it, but it finished up by saying
that the order would be forwarded to a customer rep for further
action, and then returned to me for final approval. A nice,
straighforward process...

So I ordered two sets, at CA$1.87 each (not bad, but there may be
shipping and handling charges), so we'll see what happens. I suspect
they will have long ago lost or thrown away my customer number, but If
they get here, one set is yours, and I'll be willing to order more. Or
if there's really a demand, I know a University wih a customer number
that has a bookstore; perhaps they could order and resell them.

Cheers... Tony H.
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Re: APL keyboard stickers

Verrilli


--- In [hidden email], Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:

> Heh - I have a personal customer number that I see from my old paper
> files I last used in 1992. To my surprise the (bizarrely designed)
> order entry page was happy to take it, but it finished up by saying
> that the order would be forwarded to a customer rep for further
> action, and then returned to me for final approval. A nice,
> straighforward process...
>
> So I ordered two sets, at CA$1.87 each (not bad, but there may be
> shipping and handling charges), so we'll see what happens. I suspect
> they will have long ago lost or thrown away my customer number, but If
> they get here, one set is yours, and I'll be willing to order more. Or
> if there's really a demand, I know a University wih a customer number
> that has a bookstore; perhaps they could order and resell them.
Tony,
Thanks for the reply. And thanks for trying your old customer number! I hope it  works, but from experience I know that the page will accept any number. In my case, About five days later a response came back saying it was invalid.

Let me know what happens
Colin


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Re: APL keyboard stickers

wrljet
Not useful to the conversation, but I had one of those customer
numbers back around 1980 when I was in school in Syracuse NY.

I needed it to buy a little package of weird IBM Bristol spline
wrenches to work on a Selectric typewriter based APL terminals
I had scrounged.  I bought three of the terminals from a
fraternity house.  Made one working one from the three.
They had a big PCB loaded with DTL chips.  The wrenches came from
an IBM office in Syracuse.

I don't remember who made the terminals, but Datel somehow sticks
in my memory.

I still have the wrenches, but alas those Selectrics are long gone:
http://www.wrljet.com/rennpics/selectric-tools1.jpg
http://www.wrljet.com/rennpics/selectric-tools2.jpg

Bill


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Re: APL keyboard stickers

Verrilli
In reply to this post by Mark Morgan Lloyd-2


--- In [hidden email], Mark Morgan Lloyd
> This any use?
> http://shop.hooleon.com/products/keyboards-stickers-emulations-apl

Mark,
Thanks for this pointer. Last time I had checked with them, they were sold out of this item.
I see that these are intended for key fronts. I'm not sure that would work on a laptop. The IBM stickers are transparent so they work well on the key top also.
But if I can't find a way to get the IBM ones, I'll give these a try.

Colin


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Re: APL keyboard stickers

wrljet
In reply to this post by Tony Harminc
I worked at STSC from 1981 to 1990, originally on VSAPL enhancements
(building NARS with Bob Smith), and later I was one of the developers of the from-scratch APL product we sold for Unix systems. I did the
386 protected mode port of that to run on MS-DOS.

Phelps Gates, author of the 16-bit APL*PLUS PC system, built the
front end  editor for that.  We thunked back and forth between
protected mode for the interpreter and real mode for his user
interface.

Anyway, to the point, here's a (not very good) picture of a set of
the original STSC APL*PLUS PC keyboard stickers.

http://www.wrljet.com/rennpics/apl-keyb-stickers.jpg

Bill


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Re: APL keyboard stickers

dhdurgee
I don't know if this helps, but APL keyboards are still available in both PS2 and USB versions from Unicomp.  They are out at the moment but expect to have them available again in about three weeks.  You can check at http://www.pckeyboard.com/ if this is of any use to you.

Dave

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Re: APL keyboard stickers

William Gallant
In reply to this post by wrljet
I have a few questions about STSC things.
Since you worked there, you might be able to assist me.
Rather than using posts here - could you please
contact me privately Bill?

[hidden email] 


________________________________
 From: wrljet <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 10:14 AM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: APL keyboard stickers
 


 
I worked at STSC from 1981 to 1990, originally on VSAPL enhancements
(building NARS with Bob Smith), and later I was one of the developers of the from-scratch APL product we sold for Unix systems. I did the
386 protected mode port of that to run on MS-DOS.

Phelps Gates, author of the 16-bit APL*PLUS PC system, built the
front end  editor for that.  We thunked back and forth between
protected mode for the interpreter and real mode for his user
interface.

Anyway, to the point, here's a (not very good) picture of a set of
the original STSC APL*PLUS PC keyboard stickers.

http://www.wrljet.com/rennpics/apl-keyb-stickers.jpg

Bill


 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: APL keyboard stickers

Greg B
In reply to this post by dhdurgee
Do you have a specific POC for the Unicomp APL keyboards? I contacted them and the respones was that they were "considering" another run of the APL keyboard.

Thanks
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Re: APL keyboard stickers

dhdurgee


--- In [hidden email], Greg B <boltcapt@...> wrote:
>
> Do you have a specific POC for the Unicomp APL keyboards? I contacted them
> and the respones was that they were "considering" another run of the APL
> keyboard.
>

Can you read this:

http://support.pckeyboard.com/ticket.php?track=WQ3-7SV-XNEQ&e=dhdurgee%40verizon.net&Refresh=24735

In case you can't:

Case Tracking ID: WQ3-7SV-XNEQ
       
PC Keyboard Support Portal > PC Keyboard Help Desk > Your ticket
APL keyboards
               
 
Tracking ID: WQ3-7SV-XNEQ (Ticket number: 4677)
Ticket status: Resolved [Open ticket]
Created on: 2013-07-08 11:26:51
Updated: 2013-07-08 12:04:01
Last replier: Don Bowman
Category: Default
Replies: 1
Priority: Low
         
               

               
 
Date: 2013-07-08 11:26:51
Name: David H. Durgee
Email: dhdurgee (at) verizon (dot) net
        Printer friendly version

Message:

Do you still offer an APL keyboard? I purchased one from you a while
ago and I know of some people that might be interested in purchasing
one, but I no longer see them listed on your web site. Are APL keyboards
still available?

Dave
 
Date: 2013-07-08 12:03:28
Name: Don Bowman
        Printer friendly version

Message:

Dave, we have temporarily out of the APL keyboards. We hope to have them available in about 3 weeks. Please check our website for re-introduction of the APL keyboard in that timeframe.

Best regards,

Don Bowman
PC Keyboard
http://www.pckeyboard.com
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Re: APL keyboard stickers

Greg B
Thank you fro taking the time to respond. I was able to view your link without problem. I'll be towards the front of the line in picking one of these up.

Greg
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Re: APL keyboard stickers

Hercules390 - General mailing list
In reply to this post by Verrilli
Continuing a 2+ year old thread... While tidying up some stuff at
home, I came across an almost original sheet of APL keyboard stickers
that I had used as a bookmark years ago. Actually I remember that I
had lent the book to a friend, and he returned it with apologies after
keeping it for at least five years, and *that* was at least 20 years
ago, so...

This is GX20-1783-2 "APL TERMINAL CHARACTERS", which is the sticker
set mentioned in the APL General Information manual on bitsavers.
These are for the 2741 (and maybe 2740 and 1050?) terminals, and are
meant to go on the front of the keys. I don't know what changed in the
-2 version.

Anyway - I imagine the glue is well dried out by now, but I have
uploaded a scan of the sheet to Yahoo if anyone is interested.

Tony H.
1234