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Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

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Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
Hi All,

in February I published the APL\360 workspaces Phil extracted from MVT and announced another two more upcoming publications:
>
> - Second will be an update of the mvt4apl "ready to install"
> system containing all the above workspaces and enhancements
> from feedback received on the 1.00 version.
>
> - Third will be in cooperation with the Computer History
> Museum a "ready to use" system, where the APL licensed code
> will be hosted at the Museum's website.
>
Well, today I'm publishing MVT for APL Version 2.00 (mvt4apl-2.00) which is both in one:

While updating, restructuring and automating mvt4apl-1.00 to create an easy to handle base for the "ready to use" system I realized that the techniques used for that could easily be extended to fully automate the installation process too, thus allowing the "ready to install" and the "ready to use" systems to be identical.

So, all you need is a Windows or Linux system, the MVT for APL Version 2.00 distribution from

http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00.zip

and the APL\360 source from the Museum (link is published in the MVT for APL documentation).

All you need to do is

- Install the APL font, predefined connection parameters and very few minor settings on your Windows or Linux system (and that's the only manual work you need to do!)

- Unzip the source you downloaded from the museum

- Start the system by executing a single script.

- Sit back, relax and wait for two APL\360 windows to pop up

There are no interactions with Hercules or OS/360 necessary. The need for knowhow in these areas has been completely eliminated, making MVT for APL a true ready to use APL\360 system while still not containing a single byte of APL\360 licensed code.

Specific features are:

- A ready to run OS/360-MVT 21.8F system configured to accommodate APL\360 but not containing any copyrighted code.
- An automated procedure to build APL\360 and the MVT supervisor calls it relies on from source.
- An automated operator (APLPILOT) for the OS/360-MVT system.
- A minimal automated operator for the recording terminal, which is intended for server type Linux systems to enable deployment of AaaS (APL as a Service).
- The MVT for APL Version 2.00 User's Manual.
- A partial reimplementation of the OPFNS workspace with sufficient functionality to operate APL\360 on emulated hardware.
- A comprehensive public workspace library which has been imported from APL\MTS (thanks Phil!)

Acknowledgements:
=================

- Len Shustek, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, Computer History Museum, Mountain View, went through 10 years of persistent negotiations with IBM to make the impossible happen: Obtain a license to make the APL\360 source code available to the public for non-commercial use.
- Brian and Barry Silverman shared many insights they gained during their 1998 APL\360 resurrection project, especially on how to handcraft a library structure on DASD. This greatly helped overcome the chicken-egg problem of how to create an initial library setup without having the original distribution tape available.
- Catherine Lathwell spread the word when the APL\360 source became available and provided the connection to Len Shustek.
- Max H. Parke provided the IBM 2741 terminal support: Having created the Hercules device driver for the 2741 and other asynchronous terminals attached to an IBM 2703 TCU, Max is most knowledgeable when it comes to implementing emulations of complex communications equipment and topologies. With the availability of APL\360 running on OS/360-MVT under Hercules he added the functionality and features required by APL\360 to the 2741 device support to provide a true generic implementation of the most commonly used APL terminal back in the APL\360 era.
- Tony Harminc made information about APL internal structures (workspaces, libraries, control blocks) available that was very helpful in creating the initial library setup.
- Jay Maynard's cookbook style MVT system generation instructions enabled getting up to speed with OS/360-MVT quickly.
- Kevin Leonard provides a lot of tools (namely PDS, COMPARE and REVIEW) and usability enhancements for OS/360-MVT on his website that helped transforming the MVT system initially meant as a runtime only environment into a veritable development system.
- Phil Roberts extracted the public library workspaces from APL\MTS. This was a major effort including installation of MTS and APL\MTS, exploring how to execute APL\MTS and how to print output, unlocking hidden functions, putting together some 4,000 APL statements to extract and finally print the full contents of the workspaces.
- and last but not least the Hercules developers who made this effort possible by providing this great piece of software.

Have Fun!

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winnow33

I tried it on Win XP but ran into two issues.  The first is that it needs msvcr100.dll to run.  I found a copy and put it in the Windows directory and it seemed happy.  But then the script complains of a JCL error at S APL360.  I think the relevant log lines are:

225530 4000  22.55.30 IKJ052I TIME SHARING REGION 01 HAS STARTED
 225530 4000  22.55.30 IKJ019I TSO HAS BEEN INITIALIZED
 225532 0000  22.55.32 S BALLOON
 225532 0000  22.55.32 MN SESS,T
 225533 0000  22.55.33 MN SESS,T
 225534 0000  22.55.34 S APL360
 225534 0040  22.55.34 IEE132I START COMMAND DEV ALLOC ERR
 225534 4000  22.55.34 IEF868I 00E WTR WAITING FOR WORK
 225536 0000  22.55.36 P BALLOON
 225536 4000  22.55.36 IEF868I 00E WTR WAITING FOR WORK
 225540 0000  22.55.40 P TSO
 225540 4000  22.55.40 IKJ078I TSO      TSO      TSO IS STOPPING

Tried it a number of times and it seemed not to be able to get past this point.

--- In [hidden email], "Juergen" <winkelmann@...> wrote:

>
> Hi All,
>
> in February I published the APL\360 workspaces Phil extracted from MVT and announced another two more upcoming publications:
> >
> > - Second will be an update of the mvt4apl "ready to install"
> > system containing all the above workspaces and enhancements
> > from feedback received on the 1.00 version.
> >
> > - Third will be in cooperation with the Computer History
> > Museum a "ready to use" system, where the APL licensed code
> > will be hosted at the Museum's website.
> >
> Well, today I'm publishing MVT for APL Version 2.00 (mvt4apl-2.00) which is both in one:
>
> While updating, restructuring and automating mvt4apl-1.00 to create an easy to handle base for the "ready to use" system I realized that the techniques used for that could easily be extended to fully automate the installation process too, thus allowing the "ready to install" and the "ready to use" systems to be identical.
>
> So, all you need is a Windows or Linux system, the MVT for APL Version 2.00 distribution from
>
> http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00.zip
>
> and the APL\360 source from the Museum (link is published in the MVT for APL documentation).
>
> All you need to do is
>
> - Install the APL font, predefined connection parameters and very few minor settings on your Windows or Linux system (and that's the only manual work you need to do!)
>
> - Unzip the source you downloaded from the museum
>
> - Start the system by executing a single script.
>
> - Sit back, relax and wait for two APL\360 windows to pop up
>
> There are no interactions with Hercules or OS/360 necessary. The need for knowhow in these areas has been completely eliminated, making MVT for APL a true ready to use APL\360 system while still not containing a single byte of APL\360 licensed code.
>
> Specific features are:
>
> - A ready to run OS/360-MVT 21.8F system configured to accommodate APL\360 but not containing any copyrighted code.
> - An automated procedure to build APL\360 and the MVT supervisor calls it relies on from source.
> - An automated operator (APLPILOT) for the OS/360-MVT system.
> - A minimal automated operator for the recording terminal, which is intended for server type Linux systems to enable deployment of AaaS (APL as a Service).
> - The MVT for APL Version 2.00 User's Manual.
> - A partial reimplementation of the OPFNS workspace with sufficient functionality to operate APL\360 on emulated hardware.
> - A comprehensive public workspace library which has been imported from APL\MTS (thanks Phil!)
>
> Acknowledgements:
> =================
>
> - Len Shustek, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, Computer History Museum, Mountain View, went through 10 years of persistent negotiations with IBM to make the impossible happen: Obtain a license to make the APL\360 source code available to the public for non-commercial use.
> - Brian and Barry Silverman shared many insights they gained during their 1998 APL\360 resurrection project, especially on how to handcraft a library structure on DASD. This greatly helped overcome the chicken-egg problem of how to create an initial library setup without having the original distribution tape available.
> - Catherine Lathwell spread the word when the APL\360 source became available and provided the connection to Len Shustek.
> - Max H. Parke provided the IBM 2741 terminal support: Having created the Hercules device driver for the 2741 and other asynchronous terminals attached to an IBM 2703 TCU, Max is most knowledgeable when it comes to implementing emulations of complex communications equipment and topologies. With the availability of APL\360 running on OS/360-MVT under Hercules he added the functionality and features required by APL\360 to the 2741 device support to provide a true generic implementation of the most commonly used APL terminal back in the APL\360 era.
> - Tony Harminc made information about APL internal structures (workspaces, libraries, control blocks) available that was very helpful in creating the initial library setup.
> - Jay Maynard's cookbook style MVT system generation instructions enabled getting up to speed with OS/360-MVT quickly.
> - Kevin Leonard provides a lot of tools (namely PDS, COMPARE and REVIEW) and usability enhancements for OS/360-MVT on his website that helped transforming the MVT system initially meant as a runtime only environment into a veritable development system.
> - Phil Roberts extracted the public library workspaces from APL\MTS. This was a major effort including installation of MTS and APL\MTS, exploring how to execute APL\MTS and how to print output, unlocking hidden functions, putting together some 4,000 APL statements to extract and finally print the full contents of the workspaces.
> - and last but not least the Hercules developers who made this effort possible by providing this great piece of software.
>
> Have Fun!
>
> Cheers, Juergen
>


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], "winnow33" <winnow33@...> wrote:
>
> I tried it on Win XP but ran into two issues.
>
Hi Winnow,

when seeing your post I thought at first "why doesn't that guy simply read the documentation?". Looking closer, I had to realize once again that shit can and will happen:

In fact, your second issue is directly related to the first one:
>
> The first is that it needs msvcr100.dll to run.
>
I didn't want to engage in having the installation script find out whether the user has a valid Microsoft runtime library msvcr100.dll installed, which is why I simply provide the download link in the User's Manual at the point, where the error will occur if it isn't installed: In chapter "Start the APL\360 System" on page 8.

So far so good: Sooner or later the user will find out what the problem is, either by reading the User's Manual :-) or by "found a copy and put it in the Windows directory" :-(, and continue...
>
>  225534 0000  22.55.34 S APL360
>  225534 0040  22.55.34 IEE132I START COMMAND DEV ALLOC ERR
>
The installer logic is pretty simple: It remembers that it did already run once by placing a file named "status" in the aplinst folder. If, on subsequent calls, this file is found the installer doesn't get called again.

The point here is that Hercules always ends with RC=0 regardless what happened "inside", which is why I didn't bother to check its return code (I'm testing under Linux and on Linux the missing DLL situation cannot occur). So, in the given situation the installer didn't get aborted from the non zero Hercules return code created by Windows upon terminating Hercules due to the missing DLL. This means it ran 'til the very end and created its status file.

Then you resolved the DLL issue and tried again: The installer doesn't get called because the status file suggests that APL\360 is installed already. Well, but it isn't because the DLL issue prevented it. Consequently you get an IEE132I because the APL\360 runtime library doesn't exist.

(:-(\/

I fixed the logic of the installer now such that it terminates on a none zero Hercules return code (Windows only, Linux I still think it's not necessary).

I've updated yesterday's version in place (i.e. same version number, same download link) and would appreciate if you download it again, using the same installation sequence (i.e. remove you msvcr100.dll, then put it back in place after the error message made you aware of the "problem", and rerun the apl360.bat script). Provided you've matched all other installation prereqs I'm sure that it will work now.

Of course you also can continue on your existing download by simply deleting the "status" file in folder aplinst and rerunning the apl360.bat script.

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winnow33

Great job!

Works both ways as you said, deleting the status file or by using the new installer and downloading the dll after the first run.


--- In [hidden email], "Juergen" <winkelmann@...> wrote:

>
> --- In [hidden email], "winnow33" <winnow33@> wrote:
> >
> > I tried it on Win XP but ran into two issues.
> >
> Hi Winnow,
>
> when seeing your post I thought at first "why doesn't that guy simply read the documentation?". Looking closer, I had to realize once again that shit can and will happen:
>
> In fact, your second issue is directly related to the first one:
> >
> > The first is that it needs msvcr100.dll to run.
> >
> I didn't want to engage in having the installation script find out whether the user has a valid Microsoft runtime library msvcr100.dll installed, which is why I simply provide the download link in the User's Manual at the point, where the error will occur if it isn't installed: In chapter "Start the APL\360 System" on page 8.
>
> So far so good: Sooner or later the user will find out what the problem is, either by reading the User's Manual :-) or by "found a copy and put it in the Windows directory" :-(, and continue...
> >
> >  225534 0000  22.55.34 S APL360
> >  225534 0040  22.55.34 IEE132I START COMMAND DEV ALLOC ERR
> >
> The installer logic is pretty simple: It remembers that it did already run once by placing a file named "status" in the aplinst folder. If, on subsequent calls, this file is found the installer doesn't get called again.
>
> The point here is that Hercules always ends with RC=0 regardless what happened "inside", which is why I didn't bother to check its return code (I'm testing under Linux and on Linux the missing DLL situation cannot occur). So, in the given situation the installer didn't get aborted from the non zero Hercules return code created by Windows upon terminating Hercules due to the missing DLL. This means it ran 'til the very end and created its status file.
>
> Then you resolved the DLL issue and tried again: The installer doesn't get called because the status file suggests that APL\360 is installed already. Well, but it isn't because the DLL issue prevented it. Consequently you get an IEE132I because the APL\360 runtime library doesn't exist.
>
> (:-(\/
>
> I fixed the logic of the installer now such that it terminates on a none zero Hercules return code (Windows only, Linux I still think it's not necessary).
>
> I've updated yesterday's version in place (i.e. same version number, same download link) and would appreciate if you download it again, using the same installation sequence (i.e. remove you msvcr100.dll, then put it back in place after the error message made you aware of the "problem", and rerun the apl360.bat script). Provided you've matched all other installation prereqs I'm sure that it will work now.
>
> Of course you also can continue on your existing download by simply deleting the "status" file in folder aplinst and rerunning the apl360.bat script.
>
> Cheers, Juergen
>


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], "winnow33" <winnow33@...> wrote:
>
>
> Great job!
>
> Works both ways as you said, deleting the status file or by
> using the new installer and downloading the dll after the
> first run.
>
Thanks for cross checking!

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Verrilli
In reply to this post by winkelmann
Juergen,
That sounds like a big improvement! I especially like the automated startup of APL.
If I already have the version 1 installed on linux with also the libraries installed plus some user workspaces, how can I upgrade to version 2.0?

Colin

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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], "verrilli" <verrilli@...> wrote:

>
> Juergen,
> That sounds like a big improvement! I especially
> like the automated startup of APL.
> If I already have the version 1 installed on linux
> with also the libraries installed plus some user
> workspaces, how can I upgrade to version 2.0?
>
> Colin
>
Hi Colin

I recommend the following procedure:

1. Create an empty nolabel tape: hetinit -d -n anyname.aws
2. Logon to APMAINT on your version 1.00 system and submit job APLDUMP from APMAINT.CNTL
3. When prompted mount the tape created in step 1. on drive 280: devinit 280 <your path>/anyname.aws
4. Shutdown your version 1.00 system
5. Unzip the mvt4apl-2.00.zip archive
6. Replace tapes/apllib.aws with the tape created in step 1.
7. Perform the version 2.00 installation as described in the User's Manual

This sequence will bring up the version 2 system with exactly the users, libraries and workspaces you had in your version 1 system. The libraries that come with version 2 are identical to those I distributed standalone earlier, with the exception of two additional news items in the APLNOW storyline of workspace 1 NEWS.

If you want to merge that into your system (fully optional, it's documentation only!), you can run job RETRIEVE from APMAINT.CNTL of the version 2 system, which comes preconfigured to select 1 NEWS only: RETRIEVE will ask for a tape and then you simply mount the original apllib.aws tape that came with version 2.

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Verrilli
Juergen,
Thanks for the procedure.
I had a small glitch with hetinit as it couldn't find the shared libraries for Hercules utilities. I added the path to LD_LIBRARY_PATH. Not sure if that is the correct way. It seemed to create a file in the tapes directory.
I then ran the APLDUMP job and got this in the master console:
      $ 3.22.30 JOB   13 -- APLDUMP  -- BEGINNING EXEC - INIT 1 - CLASS A
    -   3.22.30 JOB   13 IEF403I APLDUMP  STARTED    TIME=03.22.30
     *  3.22.30 JOB   13 IEF233A M 280,APLLIB,,APLDUMP,SS
        3.22.30 JOB   13 APL     INVALID -- APL RUNNING  DUMP 10000
     *  3.22.30 JOB   13 04 APL     INVALID -- APL RUNNING  DUMP 10000
The "INVALID" didn't look too good.
I did the devinit 280 in the Hercules console anyway, but not much happened. the file is small in the tapes directory:

[colin@colin-linux tapes]$ ls -l
total 696
-rw-r--r--. 1 colin colin  53448 Nov  3 12:13 apllib.aws
-rw-rw-r--. 1 colin colin 650610 Feb 26 15:02 APL_LIBRARY_DUMP_13.057.aws
-rw-r-----. 1 colin colin     12 Apr 24 22:20 v1_backup.aws

so I don't think the backup occurred. Suggestions?

--- In [hidden email], "Juergen" <winkelmann@...> wrote:

>
> --- In [hidden email], "verrilli" <verrilli@> wrote:
> >
> > Juergen,
> > That sounds like a big improvement! I especially
> > like the automated startup of APL.
> > If I already have the version 1 installed on linux
> > with also the libraries installed plus some user
> > workspaces, how can I upgrade to version 2.0?
> >
> > Colin
> >
> Hi Colin
>
> I recommend the following procedure:
>
> 1. Create an empty nolabel tape: hetinit -d -n anyname.aws
> 2. Logon to APMAINT on your version 1.00 system and submit job APLDUMP from APMAINT.CNTL
> 3. When prompted mount the tape created in step 1. on drive 280: devinit 280 <your path>/anyname.aws
> 4. Shutdown your version 1.00 system
> 5. Unzip the mvt4apl-2.00.zip archive
> 6. Replace tapes/apllib.aws with the tape created in step 1.
> 7. Perform the version 2.00 installation as described in the User's Manual
>
> This sequence will bring up the version 2 system with exactly the users, libraries and workspaces you had in your version 1 system. The libraries that come with version 2 are identical to those I distributed standalone earlier, with the exception of two additional news items in the APLNOW storyline of workspace 1 NEWS.
>
> If you want to merge that into your system (fully optional, it's documentation only!), you can run job RETRIEVE from APMAINT.CNTL of the version 2 system, which comes preconfigured to select 1 NEWS only: RETRIEVE will ask for a tape and then you simply mount the original apllib.aws tape that came with version 2.
>
> Cheers, Juergen
>


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], "verrilli" <verrilli@...> wrote:
>
> Juergen,
> Thanks for the procedure.
> I had a small glitch with hetinit as it couldn't find the
> shared libraries for Hercules utilities. I added the path
> to LD_LIBRARY_PATH. Not sure if that is the correct way.
> It seemed to create a file in the tapes directory.
>
Hi Colin,

yes, that's of course correct... I didn't mention it, because one can equivalently use the Hercules utilities from a global installation (i.e. installed as part of the Linux distribution), which I assumed you'd have on your system. The utilities (hetinit, dasdinit, etc.) don't have any APL specific modifications. Anyway: I'm glad you found out how to do it.

>
> I then ran the APLDUMP job and got this in the master console:
>       $ 3.22.30 JOB   13 -- APLDUMP  -- BEGINNING EXEC - INIT 1 - CLASS A
>     -   3.22.30 JOB   13 IEF403I APLDUMP  STARTED    TIME=03.22.30
>      *  3.22.30 JOB   13 IEF233A M 280,APLLIB,,APLDUMP,SS
>         3.22.30 JOB   13 APL     INVALID -- APL RUNNING  DUMP 10000
>      *  3.22.30 JOB   13 04 APL     INVALID -- APL RUNNING  DUMP 10000
> The "INVALID" didn't look too good.
> I did the devinit 280 in the Hercules console anyway,
> but not much happened. the file is small in the tapes directory:
>
> [colin@colin-linux tapes]$ ls -l
> total 696
> -rw-r--r--. 1 colin colin  53448 Nov  3 12:13 apllib.aws
> -rw-rw-r--. 1 colin colin 650610 Feb 26 15:02 APL_LIBRARY_DUMP_13.057.aws
> -rw-r-----. 1 colin colin     12 Apr 24 22:20 v1_backup.aws
>
> so I don't think the backup occurred. Suggestions?
>
Well, that's clear, most APL utility commands cannot run concurrently with APL, which is what the above message says: It refuses to run a DUMP while APL is running (admittedly the text isn't exactly rhetorically brilliant).

So, just shut down APL\360, then shut down MVT, then re-IPL MVT but don't start APL\360. Then you should be able to run APLDUMP.

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Verrilli
Juergen,
That worked!
And the rest of your procedure worked smoothly including the whole automated installation. Nice work!

Colin.

--- In [hidden email], "Juergen" <winkelmann@...> wrote:

> >
> > I then ran the APLDUMP job and got this in the master console:
> >       $ 3.22.30 JOB   13 -- APLDUMP  -- BEGINNING EXEC - INIT 1 - CLASS A
> >     -   3.22.30 JOB   13 IEF403I APLDUMP  STARTED    TIME=03.22.30
> >      *  3.22.30 JOB   13 IEF233A M 280,APLLIB,,APLDUMP,SS
> >         3.22.30 JOB   13 APL     INVALID -- APL RUNNING  DUMP 10000
> >      *  3.22.30 JOB   13 04 APL     INVALID -- APL RUNNING  DUMP 10000
> > The "INVALID" didn't look too good.
> > I did the devinit 280 in the Hercules console anyway,
> > but not much happened. the file is small in the tapes directory:
> >
> > [colin@colin-linux tapes]$ ls -l
> > total 696
> > -rw-r--r--. 1 colin colin  53448 Nov  3 12:13 apllib.aws
> > -rw-rw-r--. 1 colin colin 650610 Feb 26 15:02 APL_LIBRARY_DUMP_13.057.aws
> > -rw-r-----. 1 colin colin     12 Apr 24 22:20 v1_backup.aws
> >
> > so I don't think the backup occurred. Suggestions?
> >
> Well, that's clear, most APL utility commands cannot run concurrently with APL, which is what the above message says: It refuses to run a DUMP while APL is running (admittedly the text isn't exactly rhetorically brilliant).
>
> So, just shut down APL\360, then shut down MVT, then re-IPL MVT but don't start APL\360. Then you should be able to run APLDUMP.
>
> Cheers, Juergen
>


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], "verrilli" <verrilli@...> wrote:
>
> Juergen,
> That worked!
> And the rest of your procedure worked smoothly including the
> whole automated installation. Nice work!
>
thanks for the feedback!

In the meantime I've quite a bit of positive feedback, particularly from people without OS and Hercules background, i.e. "APL only" people. This shows that the MVT for APL distribution is now at a level that might be considered final, at least from a software preservation point of view.

So, this might be the point in time, where one could leave "authentic mode", trying to modernize the system. In a first step this would require creation of a comprehensive regression test suite to be used to verify enhancements against the base APL\360 functionality we now have available. Further steps could then for example follow the road the original product took: Port it to CMS (alternatively TSO), allow 24-bit workspaces, introduce shared variables and a basic set of SV processors, add 3270 (graphics!) support, finally ending up at something that might look similar to APLSV.

From what I've seen during the resurrection work of APL\360 a modernization up to a level similar to APLSV would surely be doable but the effort would be massive. Given that, plus the fact that the result would still be bound to the restrictive APL\360 license, makes it very questionable whether going ahead would make sense.

So, for now I prefer waiting for yet another wonder. Perhaps someone still has an APLSV (or later, or even different vendor like I.P. Sharp) distribution around and dares giving it to the computer history museum? Eventually Len Shustek might succeed getting it released in a similar way he did with APL\360... well, I'm of course dreaming ;-)

Until this dream eventually comes true: Have fun playing with APL\360!

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Mark Morgan Lloyd-2
Juergen wrote:
> --- In [hidden email], "verrilli" <verrilli@...> wrote:
>> Juergen,
>> That worked!
>> And the rest of your procedure worked smoothly including the
>> whole automated installation. Nice work!
>>
> thanks for the feedback!
>
> In the meantime I've quite a bit of positive feedback, particularly from people without OS and Hercules background, i.e. "APL only" people. This shows that the MVT for APL distribution is now at a level that might be considered final, at least from a software preservation point of view.

> Until this dream eventually comes true: Have fun playing with APL\360!

Minor niggle: doc p29 has

The jobs to generate the above tools can be found in SYS1.SETUP.ASM as
follows:
SYS1.SETUP.CNTL -----

Is the location in the first line correct?

I'm hoping to install it when time permits so that I can check my 2741
emulator against it.

--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], Mark Morgan Lloyd <markmll.hercules-390@...> wrote:

>
> Juergen wrote:
> > --- In [hidden email], "verrilli" <verrilli@> wrote:
> >> Juergen,
> >> That worked!
> >> And the rest of your procedure worked smoothly including the
> >> whole automated installation. Nice work!
> >>
> > thanks for the feedback!
> >
> > In the meantime I've quite a bit of positive feedback, particularly from people without OS and Hercules background, i.e. "APL only" people. This shows that the MVT for APL distribution is now at a level that might be considered final, at least from a software preservation point of view.
>
> > Until this dream eventually comes true: Have fun playing with APL\360!
>
> Minor niggle: doc p29 has
>
> The jobs to generate the above tools can be found in SYS1.SETUP.ASM as
> follows:
> SYS1.SETUP.CNTL -----
>
> Is the location in the first line correct?
>
Thanks for the comment! That's a copy and paste error: It should read SYS1.SETUP.CNTL in the first line.

There was another feedback concerning a small typo, and one requesting a chapter on how to install on a headless box, i.e. client and server running on different systems.

If there comes up a necessity for an update due to bug fixing or technical enhancements I'll include an updated manual as well. But for now, due to time constraints on my side, I'm leaving it as it is.

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Greg B
In reply to this post by winkelmann
Greetings,

I had absolutely no problem installing and using this under Windows 7. However, when I went to install under Linux on a non-'86 type processor, I recognized that the distribution package includes x86 binaries so I could not move forward. Is there a future plan to distribute a package compilable for other platforms?

Thanks,
Greg B
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], Greg B <boltcapt@...> wrote:

>
> Greetings,
>
> I had absolutely no problem installing and using this
> under Windows 7. However, when I went to install under
> Linux on a non-'86 type processor, I recognized that the
> distribution package includes x86 binaries so I could
> not move forward. Is there a future plan to distribute
> a package compilable for other platforms?
>
Hi Greg,

supporting additional processor architectures under Linux wasn't exactly on the "roadmap" up to now. But it wouldn't be complicated at all: One would have to build the Hercules and the PuTTY binaries for that architecture and extend the startup scripts (apl360, apl360_client, os360-mvt and start_herc, and perhaps some of the automation handlers) to recognize the architecture and set the path to the binaries and libraries correctly. That should basically do the trick ;-)

What is the specific architecture you're talking about?

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Greg B
juergen.winkelmann wrote
Hi Greg,

supporting additional processor architectures under Linux wasn't exactly on the "roadmap" up to now. But it wouldn't be complicated at all: One would have to build the Hercules and the PuTTY binaries for that architecture and extend the startup scripts (apl360, apl360_client, os360-mvt and start_herc, and perhaps some of the automation handlers) to recognize the architecture and set the path to the binaries and libraries correctly. That should basically do the trick ;-)

What is the specific architecture you're talking about?

Cheers, Juergen
I found that the current version of Debian Linux includes the Hercules package. Debian runs on the Raspberry Pi (yes I know it's tiny , slow, and limited). However, with some searching, I found that others had successfully run Hercules on this platform. One thought leads to another, so why not run APL\360 on the Pi. A minimum implementation for sure, but one that would be a bit more than just novel I think. I don't have a lot of time, but I'll give a try at doing the port to that environment, but may call for help if I get stuck.

Greg
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Tony Harminc
On 7 May 2013 12:36, Greg B <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found that the current version of Debian Linux includes the Hercules
> package. Debian runs on the Raspberry Pi (yes I know it's tiny , slow, and
> limited). However, with some searching, I found that others had successfully
> run Hercules on this platform. One thought leads to another, so why not run
> APL\360 on the Pi. A minimum implementation for sure, but one that would be
> a bit more than just novel I think. I don't have a lot of time, but I'll
> give a try at doing the port to that environment, but may call for help if I
> get stuck.

It might make sense to use the "standalone" version of APL\360 for
such a small platform.  (I put standalone in quotes, because that
version starts up under DOS/360, and once it's up, overlays the DOS
supervisor with I/O buffers.)  Of course this isn't all ready to go
like Juergen's great MVT work, but it almost certainly would have
lower overhead than the MVT version.

Tony H.
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:

>
> On 7 May 2013 12:36, Greg B <boltcapt@...> wrote:
>
> > I found that the current version of Debian Linux includes
> > the Hercules package. Debian runs on the Raspberry Pi (yes
> > I know it's tiny , slow, and limited). However, with some
> > searching, I found that others had successfully run Hercules
> > on this platform. One thought leads to another, so why not run
> > APL\360 on the Pi. A minimum implementation for sure, but one
> > that would be a bit more than just novel I think. I don't
> > have a lot of time, but I'll give a try at doing the port
> > to that environment, but may call for help if I get stuck.
> >
Of course I'll provide all help I can.

To start look at folder software\Hercules: It contains all patches that need to be applied above the Hercules Sandhawk snapshot from 2012-11-30. Later snapshots may contain some of these patches already.

The PuTTY source together with the patch needed to enable it to connect to the Hercules console port can be found in folder PuTTY-0.62_for_Hercules\source.

Once you succeeded to build both, Hercules and PuTTY, you're almost ready to go: Some fiddling with the scripts as I mentioned in the previous post and it should work.
>
> It might make sense to use the "standalone" version of APL\360 for
> such a small platform.  (I put standalone in quotes, because that
> version starts up under DOS/360, and once it's up, overlays the DOS
> supervisor with I/O buffers.)  Of course this isn't all ready to go
> like Juergen's great MVT work, but it almost certainly would have
> lower overhead than the MVT version.
>
yes, Tony, that's true: The standalone version would run with lower overhead. But:

- The source the Computer History Museum provides is for the MVT/MFT version only. There is no chance to build to build the standalone or the DOS version from that source. In the beginning I assumed that we have the source for all environments, so in older posts this erroneous assumption had been discussed.

- From my point of view even a Pi should be able to cope with a full blown MVT system. If necessary one could reduce main memory to around 512K and refrain from starting TCAM, TSO and HASP, which would reduce overhead to a minimum.

Cheers, Juergen


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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

Tony Harminc
On 7 May 2013 16:11, Juergen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> yes, Tony, that's true: The standalone version would run with lower overhead. But:
>
> - The source the Computer History Museum provides is for the MVT/MFT version only. There is no chance to build to build the standalone or the DOS version from that source. In the beginning I assumed that we have the source for all environments, so in older posts this erroneous assumption had been discussed.

Ah - my mistake. I had thought that the DOS source was included. Tant pis...

> - From my point of view even a Pi should be able to cope with a full blown MVT system. If necessary one could reduce main memory to around 512K and refrain from starting TCAM, TSO and HASP, which would reduce overhead to a minimum.

Indeed. And I suppose APL routinely uses none of the expensive MVT
services, like SYSOUT (or allocation in general). But still, I think
the startup (both MVT IPL and APL itself starting) will be much
slower.

Tony H.
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Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: MVT for APL Version 2.00 available

winkelmann
--- In [hidden email], Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:

>
> On 7 May 2013 16:11, Juergen <winkelmann@...> wrote:
>
> > yes, Tony, that's true: The standalone version would run
> > with lower overhead. But:
> >
> > - The source the Computer History Museum provides is for
> > the MVT/MFT version only. There is no chance to build to
> > build the standalone or the DOS version from that source.
> > In the beginning I assumed that we have the source for all
> > environments, so in older posts this erroneous assumption
> > had been discussed.
>
> Ah - my mistake. I had thought that the DOS source was
> included. Tant pis...
>
> > - From my point of view even a Pi should be able to cope
> > with a full blown MVT system. If necessary one could reduce
> > main memory to around 512K and refrain from starting TCAM,
> > TSO and HASP, which would reduce overhead to a minimum.
>
> Indeed. And I suppose APL routinely uses none of the expensive
> MVT services, like SYSOUT (or allocation in general). But still,
> I think the startup (both MVT IPL and APL itself starting) will
> be much slower.
>
Yes, it basically runs standalone and uses MVT services only to avoid having to use MVT services ;-).

I'm curious to see how it will perform on a Pi... but I really don't expect it being slow. Startup on my 2.4 GHz Intel PC under Windows 7 takes 38 seconds, 30 of which being eaten up by pauses I introduced to get the automation as stable as possible.

Cheers, Juergen


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