Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

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Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Hi,

So I've got REVEDIT being able to process tape data sets which by their
nature are of course sequential data sets.

Sometimes a VIEW is preferable to a BROWSE because it lets you present
or manipulate the data in a way that is advantageous to your immediate
needs, but then why not EDIT?

I would have just implemented this except for the fact that multiple
data sets can reside on a tape, and writing back a data set to tape will
destroy any access to data sets on the tape which are physically after
the data set being edited, even though such (now inaccessible and
potentially physically written over) data sets would remain cataloged.

I am looking at this area because I've been informed that a REVIEW of a
tape data set no longer works at R47.0 - it S0C4 abends.  As it happens,
you can still browse it using RFE option 1.  The fix will be in R47.1.

So, is being able to edit a tape data set a bit too dangerous to make
available by default?

Thanks for any opinions on the subject.

Cheers,
Greg
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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
---In [hidden email], <greg.price@...> wrote :

> Thanks for any opinions on the subject.

FWIW,

1. I have no expectation of being able to
edit tape datasets. I've never seen or
done that anywhere before.

2. If you're going to support editing of
tapes, I do have an expectation that it
won't be dangerous, ie it won't disturb
any other datasets on the tape (in the
same way as other datasets on a disk
are not disturbed).

3. If you're going to do something
dangerous like wipe out other files,
then there should be a warning.

4. It's generally not a good idea to
release dangerous things to the
public. That's why I specifically
asked for this line in mvssupa:

C:\devel\pdos\pdpclib>grep -i refuse mvssupa.asm
         WTO   'MVSSUPA - Refuses to write over PDS directory',        C

C:\devel\pdos\pdpclib>


BFN. Paul.




BADMEMDD EQU   *-6-8,8,C'C'       Insert bad DD                 GP14205
         WTO   'MVSSUPA - Refuses to write over PDS directory',        C
               ROUTCDE=11
         ABEND 123                Abend without a dump
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RE: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
FWIW,

NFW for exactly the reason you outlined. There is too much that could go wrong. Mr Murphy will be in his element.
To me editing a tape dataset makes no logical sense.

John


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, 5 March 2017 23:04
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [H390-MVS] Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hi,

So I've got REVEDIT being able to process tape data sets which by their
nature are of course sequential data sets.

Sometimes a VIEW is preferable to a BROWSE because it lets you present
or manipulate the data in a way that is advantageous to your immediate
needs, but then why not EDIT?

I would have just implemented this except for the fact that multiple
data sets can reside on a tape, and writing back a data set to tape will
destroy any access to data sets on the tape which are physically after
the data set being edited, even though such (now inaccessible and
potentially physically written over) data sets would remain cataloged.

I am looking at this area because I've been informed that a REVIEW of a
tape data set no longer works at R47.0 - it S0C4 abends.  As it happens,
you can still browse it using RFE option 1.  The fix will be in R47.1.

So, is being able to edit a tape data set a bit too dangerous to make
available by default?

Thanks for any opinions on the subject.

Cheers,
Greg


------------------------------------
Posted by: Greg Price <[hidden email]>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links



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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
On 3/5/2017 7:39 AM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> 1. I have no expectation of being able to
> edit tape datasets. I've never seen or
> done that anywhere before.
I've seen that done:

a) officially - IBM's 2495 could read tapes produced by the MT/ST, and
that could do single character replacements anywhere on the tape
cartridge. The MT/ST was sold as a secretarial help, with two tape
drives and two Selectrics to handle office work.

b) Unofficially - in 709x and early S/360 days, some adventurous souls
wrote tape blocks followed by an ERG (erase gap). At a later time a
block could be rewritten and length differences absorbed by the gap. It
also produced spurious I/O errors, ignored. Each block could have an id
as part of the data as a check for duplicate or missing blocks.

I think it's a horrible idea, especially with the availability of cheap
disk space.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
My opinion is that if a user wants to edit a tape dataset, then the save
should be to dasd only.

That way, the user has to consciously do something to put that dataset back
on tape. (IEBGENER, etc.)

Joe

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 6:04 AM, Greg Price [hidden email]
[H390-MVS] <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> So I've got REVEDIT being able to process tape data sets which by their
> nature are of course sequential data sets.
>
> Sometimes a VIEW is preferable to a BROWSE because it lets you present
> or manipulate the data in a way that is advantageous to your immediate
> needs, but then why not EDIT?
>
> I would have just implemented this except for the fact that multiple
> data sets can reside on a tape, and writing back a data set to tape will
> destroy any access to data sets on the tape which are physically after
> the data set being edited, even though such (now inaccessible and
> potentially physically written over) data sets would remain cataloged.
>
> I am looking at this area because I've been informed that a REVIEW of a
> tape data set no longer works at R47.0 - it S0C4 abends. As it happens,
> you can still browse it using RFE option 1. The fix will be in R47.1.
>
> So, is being able to edit a tape data set a bit too dangerous to make
> available by default?
>
> Thanks for any opinions on the subject.
>
> Cheers,
> Greg
>
>
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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 05 March 2017 13:22
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [H390-MVS] Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be
> editable?
>
> On 3/5/2017 7:39 AM, [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> > 1. I have no expectation of being able to edit tape datasets. I've
> > never seen or done that anywhere before.
> I've seen that done:
>
> a) officially - IBM's 2495 could read tapes produced by the MT/ST, and
> that could do single character replacements anywhere on the tape
> cartridge. The MT/ST was sold as a secretarial help, with two tape
> drives and two Selectrics to handle office work.
>
> b) Unofficially - in 709x and early S/360 days, some adventurous souls
> wrote tape blocks followed by an ERG (erase gap). At a later time a
> block could be rewritten and length differences absorbed by the gap. It
> also produced spurious I/O errors, ignored. Each block could have an id
> as part of the data as a check for duplicate or missing blocks.
>
> I think it's a horrible idea, especially with the availability of cheap
> disk space.
>
> Gerhard Postpischil
> Bradford, VT
>

Whilst not a Mainframe several DEC machines came with DECTAPE which was basically Random Access Tape.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECtape

has some details. Having watched a PDP-8 runningOS8 from DECTAPE at VCF Zurich I would say its slightly slower than watching paint dry..

Dave


> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: Gerhard Postpischil <[hidden email]>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Doesn't VIEW already allow for editing and saving the data elsewhere?

On 03/05/2017 07:30 AM, Joe Monk [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:

>  
> My opinion is that if a user wants to edit a tape dataset, then the
> save should be to dasd only.
>
> That way, the user has to consciously do something to put that dataset
> back on tape. (IEBGENER, etc.)
>
> Joe
>
> On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 6:04 AM, Greg Price [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]> [H390-MVS]
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>      
>
>     Hi,
>
>     So I've got REVEDIT being able to process tape data sets which by
>     their
>     nature are of course sequential data sets.
>
>     Sometimes a VIEW is preferable to a BROWSE because it lets you
>     present
>     or manipulate the data in a way that is advantageous to your
>     immediate
>     needs, but then why not EDIT?
>
>     I would have just implemented this except for the fact that multiple
>     data sets can reside on a tape, and writing back a data set to
>     tape will
>     destroy any access to data sets on the tape which are physically
>     after
>     the data set being edited, even though such (now inaccessible and
>     potentially physically written over) data sets would remain cataloged.
>
>     I am looking at this area because I've been informed that a REVIEW
>     of a
>     tape data set no longer works at R47.0 - it S0C4 abends. As it
>     happens,
>     you can still browse it using RFE option 1. The fix will be in R47.1.
>
>     So, is being able to edit a tape data set a bit too dangerous to make
>     available by default?
>
>     Thanks for any opinions on the subject.
>
>     Cheers,
>     Greg
>
>
>

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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
On 2017-03-06 12:39 AM, s [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> Doesn't VIEW already allow for editing and saving the data elsewhere?
Yes, and so does the REVIEW browser.

Are you saying that I should ship the new support to allow a VIEW of a
tape data set?

The consensus seems to be that editing a tape data set should not be
supported.

I might try to add some checks that would prevent writing to tape data
sets from REVIEW/RFE in general, as opposed to just not allowing an edit
session to save to tape.

Cheers,
Greg

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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
On 3/5/2017 8:53 AM, Greg Price [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:
> The consensus seems to be that editing a tape data set should not be
> supported.
>
> I might try to add some checks that would prevent writing to tape data
> sets from REVIEW/RFE in general, as opposed to just not allowing an edit
> session to save to tape.
My preference would be to allow tape access providing the user has MOUNT
privilege, and after loading treat it as a new data set, requiring the
user to supply DASD information (DSN, vs or unit, space, etc.Z).


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list


On 03/05/2017 07:53 AM, Greg Price [hidden email] [H390-MVS]
wrote:

>
>
> Are you saying that I should ship the new support to allow a VIEW of a
> tape data set?
>
> The consensus seems to be that editing a tape data set should not be
> supported.
>
> I might try to add some checks that would prevent writing to tape data
> sets from REVIEW/RFE in general, as opposed to just not allowing an edit
> session to save to tape.
>
> Cheers,
> Greg
>
Yes to allowing VIEW, yes to prevent writing to tape data sets from
REVIEW/RFE in general.

Skip.
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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list

I'm not saying you shouldn't implement this but is this going to be useful to anyone? This sounds exciting but how often will this actually be used? If this is a minor change, then no problem. On the other hand, on real hardware, user's don't have TSO MOUNT because we don't want to allow tape wait for interactive users. On Hercules, how often does anyone use tape and would tape browse be handy? It's often easier to add a new disk than bother with tape files. Tape files also tend to be large unless you are using them to transfer data.
Jon.
On Sunday, March 5, 2017 5:54 AM, "Greg Price [hidden email] [H390-MVS]" <[hidden email]> wrote:



Are you saying that I should ship the new support to allow a VIEW of a
tape data set?

The consensus seems to be that editing a tape data set should not be
supported.

I might try to add some checks that would prevent writing to tape data
sets from REVIEW/RFE in general, as opposed to just not allowing an edit
session to save to tape.

Cheers,
Greg   #yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518 -- #yiv9507824518ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-mkp #yiv9507824518hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-mkp #yiv9507824518ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-mkp .yiv9507824518ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-mkp .yiv9507824518ad p {margin:0;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-mkp .yiv9507824518ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-sponsor #yiv9507824518ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-sponsor #yiv9507824518ygrp-lc #yiv9507824518hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv9507824518 #yiv9507824518ygrp-sponsor #yiv9507824518ygrp-lc .yiv9507824518ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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RE: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
Greg,

 

By all means - make it available.

 

It’s a tool that will not be used very often, but it is that - a tool that when a user needs it, it will be useful.

If someone wants to use it and overwrites another dataset on a tape, well - that's why we do backups.

 

Should we take hammers away from construction workers because they might accidently drive a nail too far into a board and into their foot?

 

Wally

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 7:04 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [H390-MVS] Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

 

 

Hi,

So I've got REVEDIT being able to process tape data sets which by their
nature are of course sequential data sets.

Sometimes a VIEW is preferable to a BROWSE because it lets you present
or manipulate the data in a way that is advantageous to your immediate
needs, but then why not EDIT?

I would have just implemented this except for the fact that multiple
data sets can reside on a tape, and writing back a data set to tape will
destroy any access to data sets on the tape which are physically after
the data set being edited, even though such (now inaccessible and
potentially physically written over) data sets would remain cataloged.

I am looking at this area because I've been informed that a REVIEW of a
tape data set no longer works at R47.0 - it S0C4 abends. As it happens,
you can still browse it using RFE option 1. The fix will be in R47.1.

So, is being able to edit a tape data set a bit too dangerous to make
available by default?

Thanks for any opinions on the subject.

Cheers,
Greg



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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
On 3/5/2017 11:48 AM, 'Wally Mclaughlin' [hidden email] [H390-MVS]
wrote:> Should we take hammers away from construction workers because
they might > accidently drive a nail too far into a board and into their
foot?
Don't laugh, but in the US folding baby carriages come with a warning
label to remove the baby before collapsing the carriage. Otherwise the
lawyers would get rich <g>

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
 - - - In [hidden email], <jperryma@...> wrote:

> I'm not saying you shouldn't implement this but is this going to
>be useful to anyone? This sounds exciting but how often will this
>actually be used? If this is a minor change, then no problem.
>On the other hand, on real hardware, user's don't have TSO MOUNT
>because we don't want to allow tape wait for interactive users.
>On Hercules, how often does anyone use tape and would tape
>browse be handy? It's often easier to add a new disk than bother
>with tape files. Tape files also tend to be large unless you are
>using them to transfer data.
> Jon.
- - - old notes snipped - - -

Review should not mess with TSO MOUNT authority at all.

If a TSO user doesn't have MOUNT authority, that user can
only access DASD and TAPE that are already mounted.
That works great.

I knew a mangular or stuporvisor once that wanted TSO MOUNT
authority.  He was the boss so was given what he asked for.
Everytime he fat-fingered a disk volser, it locked his TSO
session and put unexpected messages with a reply on the
MVS console.  He couldn't even attention out.

Leave TSO MOUNT authority alone.
There are reasons that it works the way it does.
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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list

> On Mar 5, 2017, at 9:38 AM, Gerhard Postpischil [hidden email] [H390-MVS] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 3/5/2017 11:48 AM, 'Wally Mclaughlin' [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> [H390-MVS]
> wrote:> Should we take hammers away from construction workers because
> they might > accidently drive a nail too far into a board and into their
> foot?
> Don't laugh, but in the US folding baby carriages come with a warning
> label to remove the baby before collapsing the carriage. Otherwise the
> lawyers would get rich <g>
>

They already did.  The warning’s there to prevent a new set from getting rich off of the
same stupidity.

TTFN - Guy

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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
I was not saying TSO MOUNT should change. I was saying that it exists for a reason and that alone should make you think twice about adding tape support to review.
Jon.
    On Sunday, March 5, 2017 11:22 AM, "[hidden email] [H390-MVS]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
Review should not mess with TSO MOUNT authority at all.
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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
 - - - In [hidden email], <jperryma@...> wrote:
> I was not saying TSO MOUNT should change. I was saying that
>it exists for a reason and that alone should make you think twice
>about adding tape support to review.
> Jon.
- - - old notes snipped - - -

Review has had tape support for decades.
One piece being broken did not break all.

Should that piece be fixed or not?  I don't care but others may.

Some TSO user calling for a DASD or Tape volume that is not
MOUNTed and if that user doesn't have TSO MOUNT authority will
get a message that the DASD or Tape is not pre-MOUNTed.
They can mount the DASD or Tape manually and try again.
Or they can type in the correct data set name or volser.
Up to them.
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Re: Opinions please - should tape data sets be editable?

Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
In reply to this post by Hercules390 - Mvs mailing list
I second or third the idea of leaving TSO MOUNT authority alone. It
isn't something that you would want the general population to have in a
corporate production environment and for those of us that are Hercules
users, we have access to user id's that have that access.

As far as Review having the ability to edit tapes, it should first copy
the tape dataset down to DASD, and allow the user to modify the contents
of the disk file.  Then give the user the option to either catalog it to
disk or to copy it back to a new set of tape(s).  This would give the
user to the option to "back out" their change in the event of an OOPS
moment.

Gary

On 03/05/2017 03:07 PM, Jon Perryman [hidden email] [H390-MVS] wrote:

> I was not saying TSO MOUNT should change. I was saying that it exists
> for a reason and that alone should make you think twice about adding
> tape support to review.
>
> Jon.
>
> On Sunday, March 5, 2017 11:22 AM, "[hidden email] [H390-MVS]"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Review should not mess with TSO MOUNT authority at all.
>

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