Data Transfer Question

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Data Transfer Question

P. Raulerson
(First, let me note that I am talking about data here, not licensed IBM programs. :)
 
I have data backed up on 3590 tapes, some data from z/VM, but most from zLinux.
The problem is to get that data into a format that a copy of zLinux running under Hercules
can read and use.

The zLinux data is not too difficult- I can dd the tape files in, and simply have zLinux
on Hercules write them back out as an AWS tape.

But... this does not seem to work for tapes from z/VM written with DDR. For the life of me, I
cannot figure out why it does not work, I would have expected it to. In fact, I would expect it
to work with ANY type of z/VM tape file.

Anyone care to relieve my (glaring)  ignorance here? :)

Thanks
-Paul





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Re: Data Transfer Question

somitcw
   zLinux files are byte streams and can be
copied as byte streams.  zVM files are groups
of records or blocks and must be copied as
either records or blocks.

   Restore the zVM DDR data with DDR.

--- In [hidden email],
 "paulraulerson" <h390@r...> wrote:

> (First, let me note that I am talking about
>data here, not licensed IBM programs. :)
> I have data backed up on 3590 tapes, some
>data from z/VM, but most from zLinux.
> The problem is to get that data into a
>format that a copy of zLinux running under
>Hercules can read and use.
> The zLinux data is not too difficult- I can
>dd the tape files in, and simply have zLinux
>on Hercules write them back out as an AWS tape.
> But... this does not seem to work for tapes
>from z/VM written with DDR. For the life of me,
>I cannot figure out why it does not work,
>I would have expected it to. In fact,
>I would expect it to work with ANY type of
>z/VM tape file.
> Anyone care to relieve my (glaring)
>ignorance here? :)
> Thanks
> -Paul




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Re: Re: Data Transfer Question

P. Raulerson

On May 28, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Paul Raulerson wrote:

> So since this particular backup has to happen from zLInux how do I  
> get DDR data there?
> It seems to me that DD should not care about what the data in each  
> tape file is, but rather
> would take an exact image of it, and restore it as an exact image.
>
> Note that is is from real z Series hardware to a Hercules instance  
> that can only run zLinux,
> and still needs to be able to read the data.
>
>
> On May 28, 2005, at 12:11 PM, somitcw wrote:
>
>>    zLinux files are byte streams and can be
>> copied as byte streams.  zVM files are groups
>> of records or blocks and must be copied as
>> either records or blocks.
>>
>>    Restore the zVM DDR data with DDR.
>>
>> --- In [hidden email],
>> "paulraulerson" <h390@r...> wrote:
>> > (First, let me note that I am talking about
>> >data here, not licensed IBM programs. :)
>> > I have data backed up on 3590 tapes, some
>> >data from z/VM, but most from zLinux.
>> > The problem is to get that data into a
>> >format that a copy of zLinux running under
>> >Hercules can read and use.
>> > The zLinux data is not too difficult- I can
>> >dd the tape files in, and simply have zLinux
>> >on Hercules write them back out as an AWS tape.
>> > But... this does not seem to work for tapes
>> >from z/VM written with DDR. For the life of me,
>> >I cannot figure out why it does not work,
>> >I would have expected it to. In fact,
>> >I would expect it to work with ANY type of
>> >z/VM tape file.
>> > Anyone care to relieve my (glaring)
>> >ignorance here? :)
>> > Thanks
>> > -Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Community email addresses:
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>>
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>



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Re: Data Transfer Question

somitcw
--- In [hidden email],
 Paul Raulerson <h390@r...> wrote:
> On May 28, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Paul Raulerson wrote:
>> So since this particular backup has
>>to happen from zLInux how do I get
>>DDR data there?

   Use FBA disks or create an AWSTAPE image,
but you may have to use ftr to not exceed 32K.

>> It seems to me that DD should not care
>>about what the data in each tape file is,
>>but rather would take an exact image of
>>it, and restore it as an exact image.

   DD should be able to take care of most
file systems.

>> Note that is is from real z Series
>>hardware to a Hercules instance that can
>>only run zLinux, and still needs to be
>>able to read the data.

   zLinux can read data.  If you don't like
DDR, use disk dump, VMARC, or other as
appropriate for the data.

>> On May 28, 2005, at 12:11 PM, somitcw wrote:
>>> zLinux files are byte streams and can be
>>>copied as byte streams.  zVM files are groups
>>>of records or blocks and must be copied as
>>>either records or blocks.
>>> Restore the zVM DDR data with DDR.
>>> --- In [hidden email],
>>> "paulraulerson" <h390@r...> wrote:
>>>> (First, let me note that I am talking about
>>>>data here, not licensed IBM programs. :)
>>>> I have data backed up on 3590 tapes, some
>>>>data from z/VM, but most from zLinux.
>>>> The problem is to get that data into a
>>>>format that a copy of zLinux running under
>>>>Hercules can read and use.
>>>> The zLinux data is not too difficult- I can
>>>>dd the tape files in, and simply have zLinux
>>>>on Hercules write them back out as an AWS tape.
>>>> But... this does not seem to work for tapes
>>>>from z/VM written with DDR. For the life of me,
>>>>I cannot figure out why it does not work,
>>>>I would have expected it to. In fact,
>>>>I would expect it to work with ANY type of
>>>>z/VM tape file.
>>>> Anyone care to relieve my (glaring)
>>>>ignorance here? :)
>>>> Thanks
>>>> -Paul
- - - ads snipped - - -




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Re: Re: Data Transfer Question

P. Raulerson
LOL! Well, you have pegged at least part of the problem - I'm not  
very good in the VM world. I only know how to use DDR and ICKSDF and  
TAPE at the moment. I'm pretty sure I could do this under z/OS or OS/
390, but the real hardware is not licensed for those OS's.

I obviously cannot run z/VM under Hercules  - no license.  It would  
run I'm pretty sure, and that would solve the problem, but I do not  
steal software.

So the thought was VM -> Tape, Tape -> dd -> disk file -> hercules ->  
dd -> AWSTape.

Problem is it isn't quite that simple for ZVM data. Utterly trivial  
for Linux data though.

If you have a pointer to one of the VM manuals, that might help a  
bit. Or better yet, is there a Hercules utility out that that can  
take a DD file and turn it into an AWS file?

Thanks
-Paul

On May 28, 2005, at 19:36, somitcw wrote:

> --- In [hidden email],
> Paul Raulerson <h390@r...> wrote:
> > On May 28, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Paul Raulerson wrote:
> >> So since this particular backup has
> >>to happen from zLInux how do I get
> >>DDR data there?
>
>    Use FBA disks or create an AWSTAPE image,
> but you may have to use ftr to not exceed 32K.
>
> >> It seems to me that DD should not care
> >>about what the data in each tape file is,
> >>but rather would take an exact image of
> >>it, and restore it as an exact image.
>
>    DD should be able to take care of most
> file systems.
>
> >> Note that is is from real z Series
> >>hardware to a Hercules instance that can
> >>only run zLinux, and still needs to be
> >>able to read the data.
>
>    zLinux can read data.  If you don't like
> DDR, use disk dump, VMARC, or other as
> appropriate for the data.
>
> >> On May 28, 2005, at 12:11 PM, somitcw wrote:
> >>> zLinux files are byte streams and can be
> >>>copied as byte streams.  zVM files are groups
> >>>of records or blocks and must be copied as
> >>>either records or blocks.
> >>> Restore the zVM DDR data with DDR.
> >>> --- In [hidden email],
> >>> "paulraulerson" <h390@r...> wrote:
> >>>> (First, let me note that I am talking about
> >>>>data here, not licensed IBM programs. :)
> >>>> I have data backed up on 3590 tapes, some
> >>>>data from z/VM, but most from zLinux.
> >>>> The problem is to get that data into a
> >>>>format that a copy of zLinux running under
> >>>>Hercules can read and use.
> >>>> The zLinux data is not too difficult- I can
> >>>>dd the tape files in, and simply have zLinux
> >>>>on Hercules write them back out as an AWS tape.
> >>>> But... this does not seem to work for tapes
> >>>>from z/VM written with DDR. For the life of me,
> >>>>I cannot figure out why it does not work,
> >>>>I would have expected it to. In fact,
> >>>>I would expect it to work with ANY type of
> >>>>z/VM tape file.
> >>>> Anyone care to relieve my (glaring)
> >>>>ignorance here? :)
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> -Paul
> - - - ads snipped - - -
>
>
>
>
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>
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>



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Re: Data Transfer Question

somitcw
--- In [hidden email],
 Paul Raulerson <h390@r...> wrote:
> LOL! Well, you have pegged at least part
>of the problem - I'm not very good in the
>VM world. I only know how to use DDR and
>ICKSDF and TAPE at the moment. I'm pretty
>sure I could do this under z/OS or OS/
>390, but the real hardware is not licensed
>for those OS's.

   The problem is converting the data to
something that can withstand transport as a
byte stream.  Convert to AWSTAPE on VM first.
Use TAPE or override DDR to not create blocks
greater than 32K.  Then something like:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/files/vmtapcnv.txt 
to convert to AWSTAPE.  Then transport anyway
you like in binary.  Physical tape, ftp,
IND$FILE, other.

> I obviously cannot run z/VM under Hercules
>- no license.  It would run I'm pretty sure,
>and that would solve the problem, but I do
>not steal software.

   If you are licensed to run zVM, then you
are licensed to run zVM under Hercules under
zLinux under zVM.

> So the thought was VM -> Tape, Tape -> dd ->
>disk file -> hercules -> dd -> AWSTape.

   If I can think up more ways to convert
and corrupt the data, do I win.

> Problem is it isn't quite that simple for
>ZVM data. Utterly trivial for Linux data
>though.

   zVM can run under zLinux so moving the
data should be utterly trivial?

   You haven't even said what type of zVM
data.  I assUme that it is not CP at all
but a CMS disk.  CMS that runs on zVM
defaults to a different format mini-disk
than VM/370.  Disk device types are
different too.  The maximum size of files
are different.  If you want to switch to
a totally different operating system like
DOS/VS or MVS, there are other concerns.

> If you have a pointer to one of the VM
>manuals, that might help a bit.

   I haven't touched VM for over 25 years.

> Or better yet, is there a Hercules
>utility out that that can take a DD file
>and turn it into an AWS file?

   You want to remove record and block
information with DD and then have Hercules
magically put them back and output AWSTAPE.
If the data is FBx80 or VB with RDWs, it
would work, but why?  If you use AWSTAPE,
do it on the front end, not after you have
tried to hopelessly hose the data.

> Thanks
> -Paul
> On May 28, 2005, at 19:36, somitcw wrote:
>> --- In [hidden email],
>> Paul Raulerson <h390@r...> wrote:
>>> On May 28, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Paul Raulerson wrote:
>>>> So since this particular backup has
>>>>to happen from zLInux how do I get
>>>>DDR data there?
>> Use FBA disks or create an AWSTAPE image,
>>but you may have to use ftr to not exceed 32K.
>>>> It seems to me that DD should not care
>> >>about what the data in each tape file is,
>>>>but rather would take an exact image of
>>>>it, and restore it as an exact image.
>> DD should be able to take care of most
>>file systems.
>>>> Note that is is from real z Series
>>>>hardware to a Hercules instance that can
>>>>only run zLinux, and still needs to be
>>>>able to read the data.
>> zLinux can read data.  If you don't like
>>DDR, use disk dump, VMARC, or other as
>>appropriate for the data.
>>>> On May 28, 2005, at 12:11 PM, somitcw wrote:
>>>>> zLinux files are byte streams and can be
>>>>>copied as byte streams.  zVM files are groups
>>>>>of records or blocks and must be copied as
>>>>>either records or blocks.
>>>>> Restore the zVM DDR data with DDR.
>>>>> --- In [hidden email],
>>>>> "paulraulerson" <h390@r...> wrote:
>>>>>> (First, let me note that I am talking about
>>>>>>data here, not licensed IBM programs. :)
>>>>>> I have data backed up on 3590 tapes, some
>>>>>>data from z/VM, but most from zLinux.
>>>>>> The problem is to get that data into a
>>>>>>format that a copy of zLinux running under
>>>>>>Hercules can read and use.
>>>>>> The zLinux data is not too difficult- I can
>>>>>>dd the tape files in, and simply have zLinux
>>>>>>on Hercules write them back out as an AWS tape.
>>>>>> But... this does not seem to work for tapes
>>>>>>from z/VM written with DDR. For the life of me,
>>>>>>I cannot figure out why it does not work,
>>>>>>I would have expected it to. In fact,
>>>>>>I would expect it to work with ANY type of
>>>>>>z/VM tape file.
>>>>>> Anyone care to relieve my (glaring)
>>>>>>ignorance here? :)
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> -Paul
- - - ads snipped - - -




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Re: Re: Data Transfer Question

P. Raulerson

On May 29, 2005, at 11:29, somitcw wrote:

> --- In [hidden email],
> Paul Raulerson <h390@r...> wrote:
> > LOL! Well, you have pegged at least part
> >of the problem - I'm not very good in the
> >VM world. I only know how to use DDR and
> >ICKSDF and TAPE at the moment. I'm pretty
> >sure I could do this under z/OS or OS/
> >390, but the real hardware is not licensed
> >for those OS's.
>
>    The problem is converting the data to
> something that can withstand transport as a
> byte stream.  Convert to AWSTAPE on VM first.
> Use TAPE or override DDR to not create blocks
> greater than 32K.  Then something like:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/files/vmtapcnv.txt
> to convert to AWSTAPE.  Then transport anyway
> you like in binary.  Physical tape, ftp,
> IND$FILE, other.
>

Well- that will work - if I can find an assembler under z/VM that  
will assemble that.

Again, I am not sure where you are coming from on the tape issue  
regarding blocks and
stream data. All data, so far as I am aware, is written to tape as  
blocks of data, with
inter record gaps and all the same stuff that has been around since  
the 70's.

Using dd to drag it off should mean something as simple as using DD  
to put it back on,
but there is something about using the AWS tape format in this way  
that simply does not work.

I can, for instance, dd a ZVM tape (say- the installation tape) to a  
series of dd files,
and then restore those files back to a blank tape, again using dd,  
and I get a copy of the installation tape I can IPL ICKDSF and DDR  
from, and will actually install. I'm sure there is some TAPECOPY  
function under z/VM that is similar to that under z/OS, but I have  
not been able to find it. In the meantime that trick with dd above  
works.

Thanks for pointing out that I could simply run Hercules under a z/Vm  
instance - I had forgotten about that. I will have to think on how  
that capability may be used to deal with this.  I guess I could  
simply attach a real tape device to the instance running hercules,  
and have hercules look at it like a SCSI tape device. Not a clue if  
that will work, but worth a try I suppose.  We hav 3590's and I don't  
think Herc is up to supporting those yet.

The kind of data coming off the z./VM system is fairly simply stuff-  
backups of the saved segments and that kind of stuff, USER DIRECT,  
and about seven or eight gigs of flat files.
Nothing I could not actually FTP off I suppose, but our backup  
strategy is to use tape, and what I need to do is get the capability  
to stuff this stuff on multiple DVD's for space reasons,
and still be able to recreate the backup tape if necessary.

Which I will point out is easy from the zLinux side, but has been  
breaking down where Hercules meets z/VM data streams... not that it  
is Herc's fault mind you. I take the fault for ignorance here.

Now let me ask you a question - why do you seem so irritated? Did I  
not tell you up front that I was ignorant on this? Do you think I did  
not search the archives first? Admittedly, you probably see clearly  
what I see only dimly, but I did try to do diligent research first.  
And I been hanging around this forum for a bit over three years now-  
not that I have been posting much at all the past year or so. I  
searched my personal archives as well.

I very much  appreciate your advice and time, but I am NOT trying to  
aggravate you .... and definitely NOT trying to do anything even  
slightly shady.

Best regards -Paul


> > I obviously cannot run z/VM under Hercules
> >- no license.  It would run I'm pretty sure,
> >and that would solve the problem, but I do
> >not steal software.
>
>    If you are licensed to run zVM, then you
> are licensed to run zVM under Hercules under
> zLinux under zVM.
>
> > So the thought was VM -> Tape, Tape -> dd ->
> >disk file -> hercules -> dd -> AWSTape.
>
>    If I can think up more ways to convert
> and corrupt the data, do I win.
>
> > Problem is it isn't quite that simple for
> >ZVM data. Utterly trivial for Linux data
> >though.
>
>    zVM can run under zLinux so moving the
> data should be utterly trivial?
>
>    You haven't even said what type of zVM
> data.  I assUme that it is not CP at all
> but a CMS disk.  CMS that runs on zVM
> defaults to a different format mini-disk
> than VM/370.  Disk device types are
> different too.  The maximum size of files
> are different.  If you want to switch to
> a totally different operating system like
> DOS/VS or MVS, there are other concerns.
>
> > If you have a pointer to one of the VM
> >manuals, that might help a bit.
>
>    I haven't touched VM for over 25 years.
>
> > Or better yet, is there a Hercules
> >utility out that that can take a DD file
> >and turn it into an AWS file?
>
>    You want to remove record and block
> information with DD and then have Hercules
> magically put them back and output AWSTAPE.
> If the data is FBx80 or VB with RDWs, it
> would work, but why?  If you use AWSTAPE,
> do it on the front end, not after you have
> tried to hopelessly hose the data.
>
> > Thanks
> > -Paul
> > On May 28, 2005, at 19:36, somitcw wrote:
> >> --- In [hidden email],
> >> Paul Raulerson <h390@r...> wrote:
> >>> On May 28, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Paul Raulerson wrote:
> >>>> So since this particular backup has
> >>>>to happen from zLInux how do I get
> >>>>DDR data there?
> >> Use FBA disks or create an AWSTAPE image,
> >>but you may have to use ftr to not exceed 32K.
> >>>> It seems to me that DD should not care
> >> >>about what the data in each tape file is,
> >>>>but rather would take an exact image of
> >>>>it, and restore it as an exact image.
> >> DD should be able to take care of most
> >>file systems.
> >>>> Note that is is from real z Series
> >>>>hardware to a Hercules instance that can
> >>>>only run zLinux, and still needs to be
> >>>>able to read the data.
> >> zLinux can read data.  If you don't like
> >>DDR, use disk dump, VMARC, or other as
> >>appropriate for the data.
> >>>> On May 28, 2005, at 12:11 PM, somitcw wrote:
> >>>>> zLinux files are byte streams and can be
> >>>>>copied as byte streams.  zVM files are groups
> >>>>>of records or blocks and must be copied as
> >>>>>either records or blocks.
> >>>>> Restore the zVM DDR data with DDR.
> >>>>> --- In [hidden email],
> >>>>> "paulraulerson" <h390@r...> wrote:
> >>>>>> (First, let me note that I am talking about
> >>>>>>data here, not licensed IBM programs. :)
> >>>>>> I have data backed up on 3590 tapes, some
> >>>>>>data from z/VM, but most from zLinux.
> >>>>>> The problem is to get that data into a
> >>>>>>format that a copy of zLinux running under
> >>>>>>Hercules can read and use.
> >>>>>> The zLinux data is not too difficult- I can
> >>>>>>dd the tape files in, and simply have zLinux
> >>>>>>on Hercules write them back out as an AWS tape.
> >>>>>> But... this does not seem to work for tapes
> >>>>>>from z/VM written with DDR. For the life of me,
> >>>>>>I cannot figure out why it does not work,
> >>>>>>I would have expected it to. In fact,
> >>>>>>I would expect it to work with ANY type of
> >>>>>>z/VM tape file.
> >>>>>> Anyone care to relieve my (glaring)
> >>>>>>ignorance here? :)
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>> -Paul
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Re: Data Transfer Question

somitcw
--- In [hidden email],
 Paul Raulerson <h390@r...> wrote:
- - - snipped - - -
> Well- that will work - if I can find an
>assembler under z/VM that will assemble that.

   Try CMS ASSEMBLE, LOAD, GENMOD

> Again, I am not sure where you are coming
>from on the tape issue regarding blocks and
>stream data. All data, so far as I am aware,
>is written to tape as blocks of data, with
>inter record gaps and all the same stuff
>that has been around since the 70's.
> Using dd to drag it off should mean
>something as simple as using DD to put it
>back on,
- - - snipped - - -

   If you use dd to drag the data portion of
a tape to a disk file, what happens to the
inter record gaps?  If you use dd to put it
back on tape, how does dd know how much data
to write for each block to get the same
inter record gaps?  Convert to AWSTAPE first
to record the block sizes between each block
and then you don't have to depend on dd
remembering where the gaps were on a disk
copy of the data that was on tape at one time.

   If all files have fixed length records or
have variable with an RDW and you know how
to reconstruct, you can move data without
keeping tracks of the size of blocks written
to tape.




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